Tapwater, RO, HMA, wet/dry and plants

Done some late night (early morning) reading of the RO info on here this morning and I think it's the path I am going to have to walk.
My water board site quotes the following for hardness..



Only thing I didn't read about was how plants deal with this kinda water..

I'd have to get the RO unit first, HMA later so mix a little tap into the RO in the interim.

Is it likely that the fish (only a big Gibbi at the moment but stocking will commence once the water is right), tapwater and trickle filter will provide enough nitrates to maintain plants?

I'm not going for a fully planted tank, a small forest of crypts and another of Vallis, some Anubias and a couple of Lotus.. perhaps some moss.. that's about it..

HMA filter

is there anywhere i can find a idiots guide to HMA filter or someone who could talk me through one because i don't have a clue and I've been told only chance i could breed anything is with one because of the water in my area is really bad.

many thanks
JB :clap:

As far as I can make out, the HMA is 'just' a heavy metal filter.. couple of the chaps on here use one in conjunction with an RO filter..
HMA water is added to the RO water until the correct TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) reading is achieved using a TDS meter..

Might be wrong what i say but my friend told me to breed his breeding group I'd need HMA water he doesn't use RO just HMA , but i don't want to plumb it in that's why im looking to see if there's a screw able version for the garden tap


also do you fill the tank complete of HMA water or just part ?


many thanks JB

That's about all I know about it all matey.. only just trying to get into it myself and picked that little snippet up from reading this morning.. was just searching for a thread I read in the wee hours this morning but can't find it.. that would have helped you I think..

yh cheers buddy !


anyone else got any advice very welcome



thanks JB

jonnybryan said:

Might be wrong what i say but my friend told me to breed his breeding group I'd need HMA water he doesn't use RO just HMA , but i don't want to plumb it in that's why im looking to see if there's a screw able version for the garden tap


also do you fill the tank complete of HMA water or just part ?


many thanks JB

Click to expand...

I believe this one comes with a tap fitting...Also Speak to Jo at Rare as I think they sell them
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMA-CBR2-METAL-REMOVAL-FILTER-ideal-Discus-Fish-/190561821023?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item2c5e5ea15f

thank you d mac so am i right in thinking i can just screw that to the tap get the water i need then unscrew put away till i need it .


also do i use all HMA for my tank ?



thanks alot JB

http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8754
This may help

That was one of the threads I read this morning, cleared a lot up .. thanks :thumbup: .. doesn't say much about plants though..


Also.. the valve that controls the flow of HMA, I know you say needle valve but it's nothing special is it? Just a manual valve to restrict flow?

Hi,

In answer to the original post with regard to water/plants and trickle filters then we first need to know whether your intending to use CO2 injection to supplement the plants. If you are then the trickle filter isn't a good idea as it'll degass the co2 as quickly as your trying to inject it.

Most plants have no really special water requirements and certainly not those that you've listed save possibly Vallis which prefers it slightly on the harder side. The uptake of both the ferts (nitrate, phosphate, pottasium and trace elements) as well as the CO2 requirements is driven by the lighting levels that you employ. So lower lit tanks need far less of everything for the plants to survive but growth rates are effected and some plants do require quite a lot of light to even survive particularly the redder varieties. There's also the actual biomass to consider when deciding just how much of everything you'll need to sustain a healthy environment for the plants. Get the balance wrong and you will end up with algae, thats just a fact of life when trying to grow plants of which algae are just a lower form. There simply isn't a quick fix short answer, sorry.

Secondly you may find that a gibbyceps is a little to big and clumsy for a planted tank and may simply treat all your best efforts as a free salad buffet.

You won't need a second HMA filter as you can either remineralise using chemicals or tap off your RO unit pre membrane stage to produce HMA water with the addition of a CBR2 filter cartridge. But this water will still have the same hardness as your supply water so it'll need to be cut in accordingly to produce your desired finished water ready for the tank.







In answer to jonnybryan.


With regard to RO/HMA water then I'm afraid your barking up the wrong tree here completely.

A HMA filter doesn't change the hardness of the water at all or at least not enough to be of any use for that purpose.

It really wouldn't be very difficult to plumb a standard HMA filter onto a hose pipe and there are fittings available for exactly that. Like the one in this link.

http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=52

I think the filters that just go inline might be large DI resin chambers, not really sure what your referring to. But logically thinking a standard filter has 2 or 3 10 inch housings and they require that the filters need changing periodically depending on use and water supply quality so I can't see how anything smaller would be of benefit unless you weren't using very much water at all.



This thread is current and may be of some use.

http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12052

Chris.

There won't be masses of plants, it's planned to be predominantly fish.. .. and I'm just about managing to keep the Gibbiceps out of my flower beds with daily doses of courgette.. just.. :whistle:

I won't be using CO2 or dosing with ferts or having special lighting..

IanB said:

I won't be using CO2 or dosing with ferts or having special lighting..

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Hi,

Then you will have problems sooner or later. Plants are no different to any other living thing in that they have requirements. Without them being met they have no chance of sustaining their health.

You can lower their requirement for things by lowering the available light but I fear that you will fall short when it comes to providing food for them.

If using RO water in particular your removing many of the elements that you would find in tap water to some extent which plants could have utilized therefore further exasperating the problem.

Chris.

i found your article very handy but is there an idiots guide to get round this surely there's a way to breed basic plecs without having to do such a large HMA / RO set up I've noticed on eBay you can buy a screw able HMA filter on eBay by connecting that to the outdoor tap would you be able to get the water you need to aid your breeding tank ?


many thanks JB!

sorry took me that long to type didn't see what you all wrote lol

I understand that, they will have light and warmth.. the question is whether the trickle filter (apparently a nitrate factory) and fish waste would provide sufficient food for them since the RO will remove everything..

My tapwater is v.hard, ph7.2 and nitrate 40ppm.. the Wife would like to keep angels and discus (and some other, probably not quite so sensitive, species..)..
I don't wish to have a fully planted tank, I doubt half the space will be planted.. and from what I gather, the species I like are pretty tough and easy to maintain

So, if RO isn't the best in this situation, how do I 'fix' my tapwater.. ??

thanks alot for advice guys but ive had some close friend give me some bad advice i was told only way i could try and breed any form of pleco i would need hma filter because of my water so ive put off buying a breeding trio online does this mean i can never breed plec's because of my water ?

IanB said:

I understand that, they will have light and warmth.. the question is whether the trickle filter (apparently a nitrate factory) and fish waste would provide sufficient food for them since the RO will remove everything..

My tapwater is v.hard, ph7.2 and nitrate 40ppm.. the Wife would like to keep angels and discus (and some other, probably not quite so sensitive, species..)..
I don't wish to have a fully planted tank, I doubt half the space will be planted.. and from what I gather, the species I like are pretty tough and easy to maintain

So, if RO isn't the best in this situation, how do I 'fix' my tapwater.. ??

Click to expand...

Hi,

Your tapwater isn't good enough IMO to keep discus in, its not so much the PH or Nitrate that are the problem although neither are ideal its the hardness which needs to be addressed for the intended species. An RO/HMA mix or remineralising with chemicals is definitely your best way forward for this.

It sounds to me that your under the impression that the plants only need nitrate to thrive, nothing could be further from the truth.

You need a balanced diet which will include protein, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals etc, etc. But just like you eventually becoming ill if you don't get the balance right so will the plants if their requirements are not met. Fact.

Nitrate is only one of the food types that your plants require and may (or may not) be produced by your trickle bed filter in sufficient quantity. But where are they going to get the rest of what they need from? So by using water that clean you will have to supplement your plants with dedicated fertilizers. Fact. Don't shoot the messenger. :lol:

But its really not all that complicated. You can either mix your own fertilizers from the basic chemicals KNO2 and KH2PO4 and use a good quality trace element mix. Or buy proprietary mixes from your LFS and use as directed. Simple.

That's what I would do. In effect you'll have the ideal solution for both the flora and the fauna. But if your to succeed you'll need to get your head around the fact that plants are every bit as complicated as your fish and then some if health and longevity are to be maintained.

The Gibbyceps remains a big issue in my opinion though, I think eventually you'll have to decide between the two.

Chris.

jonnybryan said:

thanks alot for advice guys but ive had some close friend give me some bad advice i was told only way i could try and breed any form of pleco i would need hma filter because of my water so ive put off buying a breeding trio online does this mean i can never breed plec's because of my water ?

Click to expand...

Hi,

Ok now onto the second issue. RO/HMA water for breeding purposes.

This thread seems to have split and there are two very different issues in discussion which IMO should be separated out by a moderator.

Much depends on your water supply. In some areas of the country the perfect water for amazonian species comes out of the tap, that being soft and acidic, whilst in others the water is considered hard and alkaline.


So your friend may not be leading you astray at all. I'm not familiar with what parameters come out of the tap where you live. Perhaps you could give us some parameters to work from i.e. PH, GH, KH and TDS for a start.

Don't panic though as whatever the water parameters your faced with there is a way forward. But its essential that you know what your water supply is before you can make an informed decision on what remedial action is required, if any.

Chris.

Sorry to dissect, copy and paste.. it's the easiest way for me to keep track of things..

L777 said:

An RO/HMA mix or remineralising with chemicals is definitely your best way forward for this.
.

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That's good.. this is how I was thinking would be best as I understood it..

L777 said:

It sounds to me that your under the impression that the plants only need nitrate to thrive, nothing could be further from the truth. .

Click to expand...

Noooooooo.. my question was specifically about nitrates because that's all I was thinking about.. I know they are only a part of the equation..
Sorry, it's the way I process things.. start with one thing and work it through..

L777 said:

So by using water that clean you will have to supplement your plants with dedicated fertilizers. Fact. Don't shoot the messenger. :lol:.

Click to expand...

That's not a problem.. if that's the way it has to be then I'm ok with that.. I do know that CO2 is a non-starter because of the trickle filter and, while the lights should be more than bright enough, they aren't going to be plant growing specific spectrum-wise (unless by accident)...

L777 said:

The Gibbyceps remains a big issue in my opinion though, I think eventually you'll have to decide between the two.

Click to expand...

Yes.. the mofo has just taken up residence in the midst of a Crypt patch.. *shakes fist*

He's lived with these plants since he was a tiddler and doesn't eat them but he is going to be a destructive force..

I'd planned on probably having to give him up (he was inherited with the tank) but, since we've only just said goodbye to the RTC and Dora's, it was a bit much to ask the kids to say goodbye to 'Fin' as well...
He's going to get too big, regardless of anything else...

I need to get a couple more interesting fish in there to divert attention so that there won't be uproar..

Apologies if I came across as ignorant and bull-headed.. the nitrate thing had settled in my head and I couldn't find a thread about it specifically..