My water conditions, help, do I need RO or HMA or neither.

Hi all, been keeping Zebra Plecos now for about 5 years on and off, for the first year my plecs were too young too breed, a colony of 7 2.5year olds, the next two years, I had fry nearly every 6 weeks, so much so that I had too many and sold them on ebay.

Now for the last 2 years (since I moved house) my fish have never bred yet.

I have a 36" x 12" x 15" with an Ehiem Wet/dry external filter, and 2 x 1200LPH internal filters.

Tank Conditions:
PH 6.64 (held there by API PH 6.5 buffer, explained below)
TDS 243
Temp: 29.3oC
The tank is full of bogwood and Indian Almond Leaves (x3)



Here is my problem, my tank conditions seem ok, but my tapwater is not and I have a problem trying to keep it this way.

I setup the below test:

On the left is my tapwater and on the right my finished product.

My tapwater has the following parameters
Ph 8.40
Temp 7.6oC
TDS 103

I let the water sit in a 25Litre drum for 24 hours with an airstone in, afterwards, my conditions are:
Ph 8.42
T 27.5oC
TDS 103

The Ph is too high now, so I add API Ph6.5 to make it slightly acidic for my plecs.

The finished water
Ph 6.90
Temp 28.1
TDS 193

Is there anything I am doing wrong, would I benefit from an RO Unit or HMA. Also after adding API 6.5 my TDS jumps up 90, is this a lot, or would I benefit from a change, something like Prime etc. I use Almond leaves in the tank to keep Ph acidic and to help fight fungus etc.

Any help is appreciated.

Could you tell us the tank water parameters ?
If there is a difference in the tank water and replacement water the constant fluctuations after a water change will do no good. Just a thought !

Tank Conditions: The tank is full of bogwood and Indian Almond Leaves (x3)
Ph 6.64
TDS 243
Temp: 29.3oC

I let the water sit in a 25Litre drum for 24 hours with an airstone in, afterwards, my conditions are:
Ph 8.42
T 27.5oC
TDS 103

The Ph is too high now, so I add API Ph6.5 to make it slightly acidic for my plecs.

My finished water before adding to the tank is:
Ph 6.90
Temp 28.1
TDS 193

Sorry Stuart, must get my eyes tested LOL !

The ph couldn't be bouncing back up ? I have used ph adjusters over the years and even the ones that claimed to 'hold' it there, tended to bounce back. I found filtering through peat much more reliable and effective. The fish benefited from the additional tannins too. I have used RO water but found it quite unstable. Now I use HMA filtration and only add blackwater extract where appropriate. My fish don't seem to like the chemical adjusters at all. Perhaps an RO/HMA mix would best suit your water ,

if tap water is a probelm, try RO ?

sounds like my issue too.

My tap water comes out at about pH 8.2 and after all the CO2 comes out its more like 8.6 :wb:

I have been using discus buffer (seachem product) to try and drop it down but I find that it is simply not enough to counteract the crap in the water! Not to mention my breeders slowed down and I lost a few fry simply becuase the phosphate level was so stupidly high from the buffers.

I have started brigning home RO water from work and the benifits were almost instant. the phosphate has dropped and the water is clearer. The trial tank (common bristlenose) who used to breed every 4 weeks like clockwork until the water went nuts spawned straight away!

The only issue is I need to change over about 200ltrs every few days and thats a lot of water to carry back and forward from work.

I am def looking to invest in an RO system, I ma just torn between buying one of the ones online for cheeper or biting the bullet and buying one from my local for nearly 2 times as much.

My tapwater has the following parameters
Moderatley Soft, Ph of 8.40, TDS of 103. Awaiting GH and H test kit,

Just need to know, for breeding Zebra Plecos, will a R/O unit or HMA Unit be required, or can I get the required breeding consitions using Almond Leaves and peat.

Will Almond leaves and peat get my Ph down fro 8.4 to 6.5 and keep it there. Or should I try and get my fish use to a Ph of 8.40. or do i use RO and start from fresh.

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. How can water be so complicated.

Hi all,
Stuart's problems are caused by the compounds added to his tap water to stop any Lead (Pb) going into solution. Water companies are covered by EU guidelines, which are very tight on Pb levels. The water companies add ortho-phosphates ("for control of plumbosolvency") to water and these combine with any Lead in the tap water and precipitates it out of solution as insoluble, pH stable, lead phosphate compounds. If you want the technical term it is - PIMS -"phosphate induced metal stabilisation". PIMS will also work for both Copper (Cu) and Iron (Fe).

Because metals are much more soluble in acidic water, the water company will also add an alkaline salt to raise the pH above pH7. A carbonate buffer would be best, but having had a look on "Google" it seems likely that most of them are using "sodium hydroxide solution (NaOH) injection". <http://www.pollutionsolutions-online.com/news/water-wastewater/17/fluid_metering_inc/new_caustic_soda_injection_pump_for_ph_control/7316/>.

This would raise TDS and pH, but leave both KH and GH unaltered. As we went through in the other thread, you can't reduce TDS by adding compounds (the graphs are here: <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8744&page=3>).

It's back to where you started, a combination of both HMA and RO would be the best answer. You would need to buffer your mixed HMA/RO water, because your tap water doesn't contain many (or possibly any) carbonates.

What about rain-water? I use it without problem, although other people won't use it because of the possible pollution issues.

An HMA filter on it's own would be beneficial as well.

If you use your tap water it would be best to ignore the pH and aim for stability and a relatively low TDS (this is what I do). To achieve stability would would need to add some KH, as it is quite likely your water has a very low KH value. The low KH means that your alkaline tap water has no buffering capacity, and the pH could drop very rapidly as the proportion of acid ions rises. The old fashioned "Oyster shell grit in a bag" method would also work to raise KH.

cheers Darrel

Again Mr D hits nails on head and gets the point across with out making people fall asleep.
Well done mate

"Oyster shell grit in a bag" is this something I can pick up from the pet shop?

Basically I am getting a 3 x 48x15x15" rack system and sump from Highlandken on here, so the tanks are going to be starting from fresh, once cycled and then the fish slowly introduced to the new system, I already have a 5 stage RO unit, just have never used it, so I will go and purchase a HMA unit now and piping along with a few needle valves to mix the water.

This "Oyster shell grit in a bag", is this something I can pickup fromt he pet shop? and do I just put it in the filter or in the sump?

The fish have bred for me, quite successful for a 2 year period, its just since moving home in the last 2 years, nothing has happened, I only moved 500 metres away too.

The only thing I think I have done different is change my chlorine treatments, I was using Prime, then changed to API Proper 6.5, but I have tried changing it back for 7 months and still nothing, son back to the API.

Temps etc remain the same, I have since day one, done a 10% daily water change, thought maybe I was being too fussy, but I have had these fish now for 5 years, first year they were too young too do anything, 2 and 3rd year, spawned every 6 weeks without fail, so much so, that I had over 200 fry sold on ebay. Now the last 2 years, not a thing.

Hopefully get my GH/KH test kit soon, and will update the thread with those readings.

Just been reading, Oyster shell grit will raise my PH, this is something I don't want, I nrequire it to be slightly acidic for L46's not alkaline, or have I misread.

Just for get PH get the Kh right then reduce the acidity with almond leaves
Kh = stable PH

Hi all,

GH/KH test kit soon

Click to expand...

GH and KH would be very useful to know. My suspicion would be that there will be very little of either. I got my Oyster shell grit as "Chick grit", but you can buy it for aquarium use.
<http://www.poultry.allotment.org.uk/poultry-equipment/s-chicken-grit-oyster.html> There is a list of suppliers by county on this web site. I've also bough flint grit from the same source, but it was too sharp for tank use. Coral Sand will do otherwise (the aragonite form of calcium carbonate laid down by animals is more soluble than the minerally deposited calcite form from limestones), but it will be a lot more expensive.

Stuart wrote: "Just been reading, Oyster shell grit will raise my PH, this is something I don't want, I require it to be slightly acidic for L46's not alkaline, or have I misread."

Click to expand...

Bob wrote: "Just forget pH get the KH right then reduce the acidity with almond leaves KH = stable pH"

Click to expand...

Yes, you are right it will raise the pH, but Bob is right as well when he says that isn't really relevant, for stability you need some KH.

This all to do with buffering. At the moment your water is soft (low KH), but also alkaline (high pH). This is because the water company has added a compound (probably NaOH "caustic soda", but very dilute in the drinking water supply) to raise the alkalinity. Assuming that this is NaOH it has no buffering capacity, this means it disassociates straight into Na+ and OH- ions and there is no reserve of alkalinity.

But In your Zeb. tank if we add just enough acid to counteract these OH- ions, the pH will change very rapidly from alkaline to acid, and potentially very acid, this is the "pH crash" scenario. The actual tipping point could just be the natural tendency for tank water to become more acid over time, or from the carbonic acid formed by CO2 dissolving into the water.

To stabilise your water, and remove the possibility of the pH crashing, we need to add some potential reserve of alkalinity, that is a buffering capacity.

One the water is buffered it will still have both low TDS. and high pH. The difference will be that the pH can be slowly and controllably brought down by the addition of weak humic acids from peat filtration or Oak/Almond leaves etc.

I know it is a bit of a strange concept, but I think of it like putting 4 spoonfuls of sugar in your tea. Once the tea is really sweet ("the solution is fully saturated"), some sugar will remain undissolved in the bottom of the cup.

If you drink some of that cup of tea, then pour some more tea into it from the tea pot you have diluted your solution and it is no longer fully saturated with sugar. As soon as the solution isn't fully saturated with sugar some more of the sugar will now go into solution from the reservoir at the bottom of the cup.

In this case the undissolved sugar reservoir is your buffer.

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers Darrel

Hi all,
I probably should have posted this earlier, it is the reasons for bio-acidification occurring over time in the tank. I've linked in this page because it is much better written than I can manage and covers all the relevant points.

<http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/bioacid.shtml>

cheers Darrel

good info there, thanks Darrel
HMA and RO might be too much costs?? if can only do one system do RO and re-mineralise to get the parameters you need.
otherwise I would have thought the rain in scotland was pretty OK, just depends what your roof is made of?

A good RO unit will cost around £50:00 to £100:00
A good pressure pump would cost around £100:00 to £200:00
A good HMA unit about £50:00
The HMA will produce no rejected water so has no water running cost should you be on a meter.
Running costs are
RO unit
Membrane = £ 30:00 every 4 or 5 years may be more if you flush your system
Pre Filter = £2:00 to £3:00 4 times a year if you have very hard water
Changed 4 times a year if you have very hard water
Carbon filter = £5:00 to £45:00 this depends if you’re worried by chloramines
Changed 4 times a year if you have very hard water


HMA
CBR filter = £25:00 to £30:00
Changed 4 times a year if you have very hard water
Pre filter = £2:00 to £3:00 4 times a year if you have very hard water.
Changed 4 times a year if you have very hard water

So total running cost once brought is under £ 350 max per year
Around the cost of a good quality group of the more rare Hypans

I would not be with out the two units

As for rain water
I worked on the unit in a plane that makes the poo and pee in to a nice mist to chuck it out of the plane.
this stuff is deadly
it will get in the rain

Still waiting for this KH/GH test set order it almost 10 days ago, still not arrived. I already have a 5 stage RO Unit, just never gotten round to installing it, will need new filters and membranes possibally, as it sat around for 18months in the loft.

As Bob said, I have in the region of 18 L46's zebs at the 5 year mark, and easily another 60-70 zebras at the 3 year age. 12 x 3 ft tanks in total. I have order Ken's 4 x 4ft rack system, so going to use this to breeding thew 3 year olds, in one common filtration sump system. So will use the RO / HMA Unit on this depending on many gallons of water these can produce may extend it onto my other tanks.

HMA Unit has been ordered yesterday, just getting my neighbour who is a plumber to extend the piping to the garage so that I can connect up both the RO Unit and HMA units and check there water oiutput conditions.

i have been reading this thread and the others on ro/hma, my fish are where i work in central birmingham,order a tds meter off fleabay which arrived today water from tap reading 065 on the meter i only use a hma filter my after the hma water readinf 059 checked a 3 tanks 130/135/140 for the tanks water.do these readings sound right ???

Hi all got my GH / KH test through, just need advice now if possible.

Here are my readings:

My tapwater has the following parameters
Ph 8.40
Temp 7.6oC
TDS 103
GH 5dKH (107.4ppm)
KH 3dKH (53.7 ppm)

Tank Conditions:
PH 6.64 (held there by 6.5 Buffer, but changing this now to Seachem Prime)
TDS 243
Temp: 29.3oC
GH 3dKH (53.7ppm)
KH 2dKH (35.8 ppm)

The tank is full of bogwood and Indian Almond Leaves (x3)

I have started to use Seachem Prime in my tanks instead of API Proper PH 6.5, will this cause a PH crash as the buffer is not there anymore.

What do I need to add to my tanks to get ideal breeding parameters (Crushed Oyster shells, Peat, Lamond leaves)

I have so many people giving me advice from froums and LFS, I don't know which way to go. Been told don't use buffers, then to use buffers, don't worry about PH and then told PH is vital for healthy fish.

Been told to go RO/HMA and then told I would not benefit from RO/HMA as my water is too pure, then told its not pure.

I would just like this cleared up and put to bed.