Unusual growths inside Pardalis mouth

[Lornek8]

It hasn't really been known to respond much to antibiotics or salt. Though you could try if you like. It also hasn't been reported to pass on to other fish either so a QT might not be necessary & may just compound the problem with additional stress.

If you're convinced with trying to cut off the growth, it probably be best to wipe the area with Betadine both before & after the surgery.

 

[jessfish]

It hasn't really been known to respond much to antibiotics or salt. Though you could try if you like. It also hasn't been reported to pass on to other fish either so a QT might not be necessary & may just compound the problem with additional stress.

If you're convinced with trying to cut off the growth, it probably be best to wipe the area with Betadine both before & after the surgery.

I'm only doing the antibiotics & salt after i cut the growth off - i don't know if that is typical for this type of growth & i agree i've heard it won't help with the growth itself - im thinking it will help with any infection my pleco could get after the growth is gone???
but i'm not sure just how necessary it actually is, i think im just trying to cover all the bases since i've never done anything like this before

With the Betadine, can i get this at local drugstores?

 

[Lornek8]

Betadine is available in drug stores. May be called generically providone iodine.

Previously you mentioned that you test your water each month, what are the readings (exact numbers)?
How often do you change water and clean the substrate?

 

[jessfish]

Betadine is available in drug stores. May be called generically providone iodine.

Previously you mentioned that you test your water each month, what are the readings (exact numbers)?
How often do you change water and clean the substrate?

I have the stupid test strips that show colour & not actual #'s - got them for christmas & couldn't exchange
i don't remember the numbers from the last time i checked with other testers - but the only thing that has come up was the hardness of the water, it was a little too soft (for goldfish & i guess pleco's like hard water too) for the last month i've been turning the water softener off when i do water chnages - but the water has been 'soft' for the majority of the past yr. Im not sure if that would have anything to do with the growth?

I do weekly 30% water change.
The substrate is sand (since june) so I mix the vac through it every few weeks to get rid of any air bubbles or gas build up.

I bought iodine & i was at another big al's i asked them what they thought the growth was & what they would do - they've never seen anything like it but did say they would cut it off - the only other piece of new info i got from them was to use the iodine & then put a bit of vasaline over the cut - that will help keep water out of it & let the iodine work?

anyone heard of using vasaline before - it makes sense to me, but still wondering

 

[jessfish]

Clove oil to put a pleco to sleep (not dead just sleep or really relaxed)

Anyone done this before?

I'm not sure if i would do this for such a quick procedure but my pleco is VERY wild when the need arises...i think it might be less stressful, not to mention safer if he's relaxed or alseep

but i've read clove oil can be tricky to use

 

[Lornek8]

It is difficult to determine water conditions simply from those test strips, they tend to be inaccurate & do have a shelf-life. Determining the exact values of the various tests utilzing a liquid test kit would be your best bet.

Most plecs are from areas of soft water.

Water softeners don't actually "soften" the water they simply create the illusion of soft water by removing the calcium from the water & replacing it with sodium ions. This can be very detrimental to fish.

Typically when you turn plecs upsidedown they tend to relax and thrash less.

 

[jessfish]

\Water softeners don't actually "soften" the water they simply create the illusion of soft water by removing the calcium from the water & replacing it with sodium ions. This can be very detrimental to fish.

Typically when you turn plecs upsidedown they tend to relax and thrash less.

I had no idea thats what a water softener actually did! Glad i've been turning if off.

I have held my pleco once & i did hold him upside down & very true he didn't thrash around...but when i cut the growth off i need him on his belly so the growth hangs away from his mouth - when i had him upside down it just went in his mouth - which is why im starting to wonder if clove oil will be beneficial?
If i had help I would hold him upside down & that way i could hold the growth with one hand & cut it with the other...but no help & not enough hands LOL

 

[VickiandKev]

Hi,

Just been reading this post after I commented. Do you have any fish friendly vets near you? The reason I say this is that cutting growths of animals especially fish is very difficult and can cause real problems! Also this growth is at the moment idiopathic meaning you don't know what is causing it. At this point I would say its not lymphocystis as it has been there far to long, usually the virus would run its course in a couple of months and with fish that is immune deficient for what ever reason 3-4 months tops. However, IF it is this then cutting will release the virus particles and can infect your other fish.

There are a few other possibilities. It could be a tumour either malignant or benign. Now if its benign its less harmful to the fish and wont cause problems till it gets too big and therefore affects the fish's ability to eat. If it is malignant, cutting this could aggravate the tumour and cause it to metastasise (spread around the body).

It could be a abscess, in which case you don't want to cut it just drain it but on a fish that would be very very difficult.

Also it is important to add that any procedure like this should really only be done with at least some form of analgesia, pain relief, if not BOTH analgesia and anaesthesia. I am not sure what they use on fish for anaesthesia in vets but I would be careful with dosing clove oil as it is easy to over dose and euthanise your fish. With topical medications you have to be careful as this is the only way for a fish to osmoregulate, so you don't want to prevent that at any point. Look into TAP aquagel (not sure if you can get it where you are but if not I could get some and send it to you so just let me know). It is fantastic for surface abrasions/wounds of all sorts.

I am not sure will have to look it up but with most vertebrates there are legal requirements for doing this sort of procedure and most things have to be done by a trained veterinary surgeon or vet nurse under analgesia and or anaesthetic conditions. Like I said not sure on this one, will look it up.

If it were me and also what we are being taught is that if the fish is healthy in all other ways and this is not affecting the fish's normal every day activities (swimming, eating and pooing) then leave it. I think I remember you saying it has started to grow faster, how fast? Has it doubled in size? Also is it still growing?

I hope you don't think I am being difficult just making some suggestions/observations.

Please keep us updated.

Cheers

 

[jessfish]

Hi,

Just been reading this post after I commented. Do you have any fish friendly vets near you? The reason I say this is that cutting growths of animals especially fish is very difficult and can cause real problems! Also this growth is at the moment idiopathic meaning you don't know what is causing it. At this point I would say its not lymphocystis as it has been there far to long, usually the virus would run its course in a couple of months and with fish that is immune deficient for what ever reason 3-4 months tops. However, IF it is this then cutting will release the virus particles and can infect your other fish.

There are a few other possibilities. It could be a tumour either malignant or benign. Now if its benign its less harmful to the fish and wont cause problems till it gets too big and therefore affects the fish's ability to eat. If it is malignant, cutting this could aggravate the tumour and cause it to metastasise (spread around the body).

It could be a abscess, in which case you don't want to cut it just drain it but on a fish that would be very very difficult.

Also it is important to add that any procedure like this should really only be done with at least some form of analgesia, pain relief, if not BOTH analgesia and anaesthesia. I am not sure what they use on fish for anaesthesia in vets but I would be careful with dosing clove oil as it is easy to over dose and euthanise your fish. With topical medications you have to be careful as this is the only way for a fish to osmoregulate, so you don't want to prevent that at any point. Look into TAP aquagel (not sure if you can get it where you are but if not I could get some and send it to you so just let me know). It is fantastic for surface abrasions/wounds of all sorts.

I am not sure will have to look it up but with most vertebrates there are legal requirements for doing this sort of procedure and most things have to be done by a trained veterinary surgeon or vet nurse under analgesia and or anaesthetic conditions. Like I said not sure on this one, will look it up.

If it were me and also what we are being taught is that if the fish is healthy in all other ways and this is not affecting the fish's normal every day activities (swimming, eating and pooing) then leave it. I think I remember you saying it has started to grow faster, how fast? Has it doubled in size? Also is it still growing?

I hope you don't think I am being difficult just making some suggestions/observations.

Please keep us updated.

Cheers

Thank you for writing such a detailed response!
I don't have a vet in my area that will look at fish, wish i did, all is have is employees at Big Al's willing to cut it off!! scary!

I have been reading about the clove oil for the past few hrs & it's tricky because it is possible to overdose & yet every article i've read has no mention of how to avoid that, my thought on the clove oil is use very very little & see how my pleco does & if i have to add another very small amount i will. I'm going to do a lot more research on that!

I really want to use the clove oil bc i don't want my pleco to be really stressed out or in pain, he might be in pain after anyway - so the less pain & stress the better chance at recovery.

My hospital tank is set up & will be ready to go in 2 weeks (when i plan to do this) I have iodine & vaseline for the cut as well as antibiotics for the tank he will go into. & like you said about the salt - i feel the same way & will not use that unless there is a reason to.

As for the growth it has doubled in size in the last couple months & it floats across his mouth & i've seen it get sucked in a few times - he's been able to 'spit' it out so far. It also goes into his mouth when he is trying to eat & i've noticed he doesnt eat as much as he was a few weeks ago (about half the amount now)

He is healthy which makes it even harder to do something like this & risk his life, but i dont want to wait until he's showing serious signs of distress (& by then his immune system could be weakened) & i fear he would chock on it before then anyway & my goldfish - the brave little goofs try to bite at the growth & if its viral that could end really bad.

I'm still doing lot's of research :clap:

 

[tutters187]

Hi,
i think clove oil is a good idea to sedate the fish then remove the nodules with minimal stress, but do all the research you can before hand so you don't overdose but adding more freshwater to the clove oil water should help balance the fish if it rolls over too fast.

As mentioned earlier if it's not Lympho then what is it? And will it grow back if you cut it off?
I would definitely try to research a bit more before making a final decision but if it is inhibiting the fish's normal life then i would try to remove it (if i could bring myself to).

The Betadine treatment i mentioned is an antiseptic, more for cleaning/sterilising wounds so no further infection will occur on the wound.
I would dab the area lightly with a cotton tip soaked in Iso Betadine and repeat for the next 2 days..
You can also use this in the aquarium at 1mL/100L for 2 - 3days.

Salt and antibiotics probably aren't necessary unless a further infection occurs, the salt is fine but some antibiotics will alter your tank parameters.

All the best
Stace

 

[jessfish]

Hi,
i think clove oil is a good idea to sedate the fish then remove the nodules with minimal stress, but do all the research you can before hand so you don't overdose but adding more freshwater to the clove oil water should help balance the fish if it rolls over too fast.

As mentioned earlier if it's not Lympho then what is it? And will it grow back if you cut it off?
I would definitely try to research a bit more before making a final decision but if it is inhibiting the fish's normal life then i would try to remove it (if i could bring myself to).

The Betadine treatment i mentioned is an antiseptic, more for cleaning/sterilising wounds so no further infection will occur on the wound.
I would dab the area lightly with a cotton tip soaked in Iso Betadine and repeat for the next 2 days..
You can also use this in the aquarium at 1mL/100L for 2 - 3days.

Salt and antibiotics probably aren't necessary unless a further infection occurs, the salt is fine but some antibiotics will alter your tank parameters.

All the best
Stace

THANK YOU!!!

Im so glad that i didn't wait until this was so bad something had to be right away, at least i have time before I have to do anything, but it became a little clearer yesterday that i will have to do something.
The growth goes into his mouth when he eats sometimes & i guess he usally moves & it floats out, but i've noticed sometimes he tries to eat with it in his mouth. I think yesterday it must have been in his mouth while he was eating & a couple of the nodules were really swollen & red, when i looked closer it looked like they were full of blood. I don't know if rasping on it while he was trying to eat caused damage, but i've never seen that before.

I am planning on cutting the growth off in 2 weeks, im looking into way's to tie it off (a suggestion from a vet) i'm still looking into the clove oil to make sure i sedate him properly & i've managed to find a few vets who have been in contact over email :clap:

From what i can tell of the growth it looks like there are very small nodules inside the side of his mouth - which i am not going to cut out, so i have a feeling the growth may return. But if it does i think it will take months to become a problem again, & if he makes it through this then i could always remove again - & yes like u said about yourself its hard to bring myself to cutting it this 1st time. It's soooo scary when its a fish you love & would never want to hurt

I've also heard from a few people (including one vet) that antibiotics shouldn't be needed unless there is sign of infection, so im going to hold off & not use unless there is an infection.
As for the salt i haven't heard anything about using it or not using other than it might cause discomfort - salt in a wound hurts us so could hurt the fish as well?
Im not sure on that yet, but i still think the salt will have a benifit - even if it stings a bit.
Do you have any experience/thoughts on the use of salt?

I bought iodine, i haven't been able to find betadine yet. It's nice to hear that can be added to the tank after as well to help. I'm still going to look for it & will use that instead of the iodine if i find it.

Is it in regular drugstores on the shelf? I haven't asked the phamasits yet if its behind the counter.

 

[Jackson]

I'm no vet lol but can't you just tie a piece of dental floss around it really really tight to cut off I guess the blood supply and it will eventually fall off without cutting it?

I know that's an old farmers trick. I grew up on a farm. They did that with tails. Sort of gross but it was better then surgery I guess.

Or tie it off with dental floss just below where you want to cut so it won't bleed out if it does bleed.

I have read clove oil is iffy. You have to use the right amount or your fish will not wake up. I really think you should be able to do this without clove oil. A clean pair of dish washing gloves will help you grip him. You should have another person help you tie it off and cut it.

I read people use hydrogen peroxide to clean wounds on large fish. Those were mostly cichlids. They had some good results using it. Probably not good for plecos.

 

[jessfish]

I'm no vet lol but can't you just tie a piece of dental floss around it really really tight to cut off I guess the blood supply and it will eventually fall off without cutting it?

I know that's an old farmers trick. I grew up on a farm. They did that with tails. Sort of gross but it was better then surgery I guess.

Or tie it off with dental floss just below where you want to cut so it won't bleed out if it does bleed.

I have read clove oil is iffy. You have to use the right amount or your fish will not wake up. I really think you should be able to do this without clove oil. A clean pair of dish washing gloves will help you grip him. You should have another person help you tie it off and cut it.

I read people use hydrogen peroxide to clean wounds on large fish. Those were mostly cichlids. They had some good results using it. Probably not good for plecos.

The vet i've been talking to has said to try tying it off & it should die & fall off, he even suggested the suture to get to tie it...but i've talked to 7 vets & they won't give me that - which does make sense!
So im thinking dental floss too.
I emailed the vet back to ask what kind of dental floss - waxed or not waxed (obviously not flavoured LOL)

This vet also told me not to use iodine becasue it can cause more problems & is a poison, not sure about the hydrogen peroxide - i don't think that will work on pleco either.

I'm sure tying it off wil take no time at all but I have no one to help me & the other time I used rubber gloves to handle him i shredded a few of his fins (nothing serious) which is why I will have to sedate him really really carefully.

Im waiting for the vet to let me know the best way to sedate using the clove oil - getting that dose right is important!!!:cry:

 

[Jackson]

When I helped dogs give birth we use regular old school dental floss. The best way to describe it is really strong thread. Shoppers drug mart should have all of them. I would not use the waxed one. It's only waxed to make it easier for us to get between our teeth. I think you can buy suture at the drug store as well.

 

[jessfish]

When I helped dogs give birth we use regular old school dental floss. The best way to describe it is really strong thread. Shoppers drug mart should have all of them. I would not use the waxed one. It's only waxed to make it easier for us to get between our teeth. I think you can buy suture at the drug store as well.

I haven't found suture at shoppers, but i've only gone to one place to look so far
the dental floss - i saw 'unflavoured'??
is that right? it doesn't say anything about wax so i guess theres no wax on it...haven't bought that yet either - i want to get the right one lol

 

[Jackson]

Yes the unflavored one would be the best choice. You never know what it can do.

I think the dental floss is good enough. I don't think there will be a big difference between that and some suture. If you really want to find it over the counter ask about first aid kits. I think it will be sort of expensive.

 

[jessfish]

If you really want to find it over the counter ask about first aid kits. I think it will be sort of expensive.

Yes i was thinking it will be expensive anyway - & i've already spent enough money on this adventure...i think dental floss will be good!

 

[VickiandKev]

Make sure you post after you have done it detailing how as my dog has a lump and I am thinking of removing that myself.

 

[jessfish]

Make sure you post after you have done it detailing how as my dog has a lump and I am thinking of removing that myself.

Oh the pressure LOL!!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

I will make sure i do a detailed post so people know what to do!

 

[tutters187]

Hi,
the betadine should be on the shelf, apparently it contains a 10% solution of polyvidon-iodine, it is mostly used for cold sores (in this case on a fish :whistle
just did a quick Google search and you should be able to find it on-line to buy easy enough. I buy mine from my local animal produce, they sell farm animal feeds and wormer's etc etc some of the drugs that can be used on birds and other animals can be used on fish.

It's up to you if you want to try it, i have used it on whiptails without a drama and it improved the problems they were having but it wasn't the same as your situation.

Pleco's, some other catties and loaches don't like a lot of salt so i would use 1g/L if you wanted to use it.

Keep an eye on the red nodules incase of a bacterial infection.


If your worried about to floss or not to floss maybe try fishing line.

Cheers
Stace