ABN+BN=L144???possible?

[ccole]

hey there

I have an albino bn that has just bred with a longfin bn and the fry are albino with black eyes!!!!

Some have normal albino red eyes that cant be seen properly.

They still have there egg sacks.....

Are non-albino's born albino and then gain colour???

Is this ABN+BN=L144 possible???

 

[jumon]

what I know is something (someone) born albino, can't change it cause it is in their genetics so it can't be changed, for the rest, lets wait for the highests... bream, bigbird and the others!

 

[Lornek8]

Browns start out light colored. See this breeding log from Moo.
http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=53526

 

[MIX02u]

Browns start out light colored.

True, they don't start showing colour usually until day 4-5. Keep an eye on them - I am curious as this pontentially fits into my leucistic thread question :yes:

 

[Bigjohnnofish]

albinoism is something like 1 in 10,000 occurance in b/n
leucistic is something like 1 in 100,000 occurance in b/n

so yes this is a possibility but not necessarily because you have crossed an albino with a common b/n....

its just that 1 in a 100,000 chance

i had an albino with one red eye and one black eye.... accidently sold it to a shop with 99 other albinos.....

albino b/n are albino from birth and commons are commons from birth
occasionally i have had a colour morph go from albino to common and its eye colour also changed but this has always happened around 4-5cm

i truely doubt the supposidly 144's we have are genuine... more likely a hybrid/leucistic albino bn..

 

[jessonthenet]

I thought that the l144 would just be a colour variant and not a true albino as I believed albino was a genetic fault and albino is having no colour pigment at all so the eyes have no colour either. I also thought that albino would be recessive. The brown BN would be the stronger gene but could carry the L144 gene but appear brown but albino wouldn't as it would take both albino genes to create albino.

I am a little confused if it works in the same way with fish as people. I wouldn't of thought that L144 could appear from albino X brown BN?

Wouldn't mind knowing a bit more myself.

 

[Lornek8]

The only way that L144 would come from a cross between albino and brown would be if both carried the L144 gene or you got a true abberation like the 1 in a million genetic fault. The color condition responsible forth L144 color form of the common bn is called leucistic. It us a form of albinoism. There are differt forms of albinism depending upon what coloration is reduced. Snakes have expressed many different albino forms and the genetics responsible are well know. For further information of the various forms have a look at cornsnake varieties.

 

[beencees]

I thought that the l144 would just be a colour variant and not a true albino as I believed albino was a genetic fault and albino is having no colour pigment at all so the eyes have no colour either. I also thought that albino would be recessive. The brown BN would be the stronger gene but could carry the L144 gene but appear brown but albino wouldn't as it would take both albino genes to create albino.

I am a little confused if it works in the same way with fish as people. I wouldn't of thought that L144 could appear from albino X brown BN?

Wouldn't mind knowing a bit more myself.

Ok, prepare to be confused.
Here is a link for details about what a true L144 are:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=2487

However there is also Ancistrus ps. (4):
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=905

There are ways to tell the difference.
I started a very interesting thread about this elsewhere which was pretty interesting but short on hard facts.
I have my own thoughts about what we actually have here in Aus but can't speak for elsewhere in the world. Either way these two links should provide a bit more info for you.

 

[Lornek8]

The true L144 is not what we now call L144. It was a one off 1 in a million type aberration like I mentioned before. It was a different species then the common bn and said to never have made t out of Europe. What we now call L144 is also know as species 4, or thought to be a color variant of the common bn ancistrus cf cirrhosus.

 

[ccole]

cheers everyone for there thoughts-
I checked out moo's bn breeding link and they are def not the same colour-
they are now on day 3, so there is still a chance. At the moment they are totally albino either with black eyes or with red eyes.

They two links from beencees were rally interesting and yes confusing!

I will post picture of the fry so far but at the moment my camera is having a hissy fit...but basically look at the link
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/image.php?species=ancistrus_sp(4)&image_id=4422 the bee posted and that is them but a little smaller.
will keep you all up to date!

 

[jessonthenet]

All this plecy business is enough to cause me a migraine.

I also don't even want to look into the corn snake thing even though I own one. All I know is it had a mouse a couple of days ago and am waiting for it to crap it out. It is anery type a and how it was created to be that I don't know. It is very nice though.

I looked up albinism and understand there are different types and not all affect the eyes but that is in people. If L144 can be carried by a albino(red eyes) does that mean that the L144 gene is not as dominant as albino(red eyes)? @ lornek8

So an L144 is an ancistrus found in the wild, from paraguay and looks nothing like what is also called L144 which is actually a yellow plain Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus.. The latter actually looks prettier than a proper L144. Would the latter ever be found in the wild or is this a totally man made species by some rare occurrence/genetic mutation?

Plus there is long fins thrown into the mix. Are there long fin plecs in the wild or are these man made? What is a bristlenose?

 

[Lornek8]

Bn genetics aren't really well understood at this time. Wed like to think it as simple as Darwinian genetics and in some instances it is by in others it seems more complicated.

There could be different color modifiers carried on different genes. This is best exhibited in angelfish who's genetics are abut better known. FOr instance, and I'm not saying it's right as I can't remember exactly but, the gene for ghost us carried on a different gene then the gene for blushing thus when you combine angelfish thy carry ghost genes with those that carry blushing you get blushing ghost angelfish as some fry. Again this isn't exactly right as I can't remember what combinations yield what results on angelfish but it's an example where you can get intermediates.

L144 is a leucistic form of a particular ancistrus species. The "L144" we currently see is a leucistic form of ancistrus cf cirrhosis. Same color form, different species.

Long fins could exist in nature but as it may hinder swimming ability it may nit be in nature long.

Bristlenose is another name for bushynose.

 

[jessonthenet]

Bn genetics aren't really well understood at this time. Wed like to think it as simple as Darwinian genetics and in some instances it is by in others it seems more complicated.

There could be different color modifiers carried on different genes. This is best exhibited in angelfish who's genetics are abut better known. FOr instance, and I'm not saying it's right as I can't remember exactly but, the gene for ghost us carried on a different gene then the gene for blushing thus when you combine angelfish thy carry ghost genes with those that carry blushing you get blushing ghost angelfish as some fry. Again this isn't exactly right as I can't remember what combinations yield what results on angelfish but it's an example where you can get intermediates.

L144 is a leucistic form of a particular ancistrus species. The "L144" we currently see is a leucistic form of ancistrus cf cirrhosis. Same color form, different species.

Long fins could exist in nature but as it may hinder swimming ability it may nit be in nature long.

Bristlenose is another name for bushynose.

ok so what you are saying is that is it as confusing to you as a lot of others and you need to find out more and fish genetics are not straight forward.

The angel fish thing is what made me think if fish genetics were the same as human genetics. Also what makes one gene stronger than another so one shows and another doesn't?

Do you mean same species , different colour form? Is the "fake/so called" L144 ancistrus cf cirrhosis? To be that breed does it have to have spots and be brown since the albino bristlenose is ancistrus cf cirrhosis.

So L144 is a hybrid? OR a new species altogether? OR ancistrus cf cirrhosis with no spots and black eyes but yellow?

So this L144 , where did it come from? I am not winding people up just trying to get what exactly this plec is and where it originally came from.

Are you sure the L144 is not just a **** up and then someone managed to sell it on as a L144 then people believed it and then this **** up became accepted as a breed of plec.

 

[Lornek8]

ok so what you are saying is that is it as confusing to you as a lot of others and you need to find out more and fish genetics are not straight forward.

Pretty much. Some things are proving to be pretty straight forward and turn out as expected. Others don't seem to be though its difficult to tell as everyone on the internet doesn't always follow through with pictures and complete threads, nor is the ancestory of the various breeding fish always known.

The angel fish thing is what made me think if fish genetics were the same as human genetics. Also what makes one gene stronger than another so one shows and another doesn't?

I have no idea.

Do you mean same species , different colour form? Is the "fake/so called" L144 ancistrus cf cirrhosis? To be that breed does it have to have spots and be brown since the albino bristlenose is ancistrus cf cirrhosis.

What I meant is that the "real L144" and the "fake L144" are both leucistic color forms of different Ancistrus species. Like the difference between an albino tiger and albino lion. A breed is defined as a group of the same species that appear similar, so brown ancistrus cf cirrhosus is a breed of ancistrus cf cirrhosus as are albino ancistrus cf cirrhosus, though there are actually two breeds of albino ancistrus cf cirrhosus, one with spots and one without.

So L144 is a hybrid? OR a new species altogether? OR ancistrus cf cirrhosis with no spots and black eyes but yellow?

The "true L144" is thought to be a breed of a different species of Ancistrus.
The "fake L144" is thought to be a breed of Ancistrus cf cirrhosus.

So this L144 , where did it come from? I am not winding people up just trying to get what exactly this plec is and where it originally came from.

The "true L144" was a single color morph that was line-bred to fix the coloration. The "fake" L144, nobody is exactly sure but it seems to have come out of captive breeding.

Are you sure the L144 is not just a **** up and then someone managed to sell it on as a L144 then people believed it and then this **** up became accepted as a breed of plec.

That is petty much what the "fake L144" is.

 

[The Tech Den]

The L144 "True" or "Fake"

With the L144 only having one collected and then spawned and line breed would still be a Hybrid for all captive L144 as even though it may have had physical attributes you do not really know the true genetics as it is thought that when crossed it can be more than one gene of the genetics crossed and although you may line breed to fix one it may not fix all.

There was some information I read to say that the L144 derived from the line breading program had more antler type bristles and more of them than the standard SP(4).

Still looking to find good information on it though. The above is just my opinion - still so much to learn about these little fellas.

The spawn size as in the physical size of the fry of the L144 seem to be of a smaller size than the normal SP(4)

Happy to look listen n learn.

 

[ccole]

hey there- some of the ones with black eyes have turned a mottled brown but still some are albino!!