Automatic pH CO2 Controllers

[jerry58]

Hi
Not sure if this is in the best place?.mods move if needs be thanks.

I am very interested to know if anybody uses or knows about one of these as I wish to buy one possibly later and know nothing about them,TUNZE one looks good,I know they are expensive but need to get PH down to about 5.0 ,JBL's goes down to about 6 or 6.5.not low enough.:cry:
Also need to know how long c02 cylinders last, I will be running on a small tank say H450mmxW500mmxL310mm for breeding checkerboard cichlids,I am hoping this will be a better and more stable way than using RO and a PH stabilizer.

Any input is very welcome.

Thanks

Jerry

 

[macvsog23]

Hi

They work but you need pretty good water to start, They work by using the Co2 to drop the PH.

I believe the JBL one is quite good, I cant see why you would want to get the PH that low. I doubt if using Co2 will allow you to reduce the PH that low without reducing the Kh and making the water quite unstable.

Works out quite costly as you need a shut off valve and a PH controller total cost for the lot around £300.

The Co2 will last for some time as once the water has hit the right PH very little is used to keep the PH stable. Naturally the bigger the bottle the longer it will last I use a ruddy big bottle and I get a good year out of mine,

Personally I believe PH is not the key to water quality but Kh is along with TDS.

Regards Bob

 

[jerry58]

Hi Bob

I looked at the JBL one in a shop and looked at this one.......
http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/3902

Its got Switching range pH 5 - pH 9 do you know what that means?.
I thought I needed to get the PH down to 5.5 to5.0 because this is what they say it is best to breed them.
I did ask on cichlid forum and otherone if they can state the highest PH I can breed them in and no answer.:dk:

Do you mean that if the gauge is set on 5.5 and using a C02 PH controller that it still able to crash or does it right its self if left alone and keep the water stable?.

When I attempt to breed them I was going to use RO water and at best would predict I would achieve about 6.0 PH and maybe as low as 2or 3 KH would this be low enough to breed but I worry about the water crashing thus I thought this idea of a PH converter would work out a lot better or take the problem of the water crashing away,I don't know what you think.
PH stabilizers work higher than 5.5 and I have tried to get the eggs to hatch in about 7.5 and they went all white after a short while
I do appreciate your input.


Jerry

 

[macvsog23]

I would use R/o water mixed with HMA


I would never use any of the PH adjusters sold in LFS.

As I said from my point I think that as long as the PH is not over 7.00 and remains stable you can spawn most fish by just making the water more acidic using Almond leaves ect.

I think it is the Kh that is the key to water stability.

Once the PH is low and has no natural alkaline to bufer it the PH will go were it wants.

I have spawned Angels and several egg laying fish from sparkling gouramies to L numbers with very few problems in water at around 7.00 with a Kh of 4 to 6.

I suspect your eggs went "Mouldy" due to being un fertilised or damaged rather than the water.

If I remeber once you bring the PH to 5.0 using Co2 you will have reduced the Kh to under 2 and this is not going to support life.

The Boss chap at the Aquatic Habitat in Gloucester is a wizz on this sort of thing and he would be able to tell you if your going to get problems .


Regards Bob

 

[jerry58]

Big THANKS for that info I will not get one at the moment and when it comes closer to trying to breed them I will do a dummy run and do all but put the fish in and see if I can get the water stable and under PH 7.0,I think I will be able to do this and KH could be hopefully 3 which I think is reasonable.
I to don't want to use PH stabilizers and want to keep the process as simple as possible.
I use RO to reduce the GH in my zeb breeding tank to help the condition of the eggs so I am not new to the method of changing the tank water peramitters and I have a transition tank that brings them back to tap water conditions in my area once they are about 2 months old and this is done over 2 week period and its working well at the mo.

Thanks once again for advice.

Jerry

 

[macvsog23]

Sounds good to me

Regards Bob

 

[Rabbit]

I use alot of decaying material etc to bring down my ph and it will often get to around 6 with pure tap-water, my checkerboard's are just starting to show signs.
Best bet is if there happy enough to spawn in it i wouldnt worry.
HTH

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I agree with Bob, stable water parameters, and most fish that "need" low pH, really need soft water with low conductivity. Checkerboards (Dicrossus filamentosus) are a perfect example of a "black-water" fish that needs very soft water. They are also very difficult to spawn successfully, mine never raised any fry (they did lay eggs), I just couldn't get my (rain)water soft enough. When you get down to water with very little buffering the pH is inherently unstable, and adjusting the pH with CO2 is likely to cause a pH crash. In this case I wouldn't go down the CO2 route at all, they like a planted tank, but most plants that grow in these very low nutrient water have very slow growth rates anyway. I'd go R.O. water and peat filtration (sphagnum peat in a pillow case, left in the water container), Oak/Indian Almond leaves and alder cones in the tank and an Amazon Sword (mine always spawned on a leaf) and lots of wood/moss as the plants and Amazon Frogbit/Water Lettuce as a floater. Dwarf Pencils are the best dither. PM me if you want some suitable plants.

Here is the tank look.
<

>.
It also helps if the tank has some "biofilm", you will probably not get much algae, but some of the Red algae ("Black Brush Algae"), should eventually grow on the wood.
Have a look at ApistoBobs dwarf cichlid web-site for good general advice on Apistogramma etc. <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Dicrossus_filamentosus.php>.
Apistogramma forums is also really useful, a lot of the dwarf cichlid "greats" post on their <http://www.forum.apistogramma.com>.
If you still want to use CO2, have a look on UKAPS <http://ukaps.org/forum/> for details of maintaining stable CO2, they nearly all use a drop checker.

cheers Darrel

 

[Rabbit]

Now that is my kind of tank!

 

[macvsog23]

One point on this whole subject.

many years ago I spent a lot of time money and efort in trying to alter the PH of my tank water.

It became quite obvious to me that water is not some thing you can make "Less" by adding.

Finally I settled on the R/O route.

At the time the only R/O units available were from Kent or purpose built units from pharmaceutical manufactures who charged a price that would make today's fish keepers faint.

Now with the cheap but good quality R/O units on the market R/O is with in every ones reach.

The only argument against R/O relates to the rejected water and cost or disposal of this.

It is possible to overcome this by reusing the rejected water or using HMA as opposed to R/O.

The whole subject is not a black art but by reading , following advice and experimentation, good quality water that is soft and stable can be obtained.

My advice to any one thinking of tampering with the water quality is to seek information from people who have been successful.

As I always say Fishmongers keep fish we keep water.

Should any one wish to pick my brains on this subject as always a PM or phone call will receive my help and advice as best as I can.

Regards Bob

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
"Now that is my kind of tank!" thanks Rabbit, it's not mine it belongs to a fantastic Polish dwarf cichlid keeper, "Ruki".

Here is his entry to the AGA 2009 Aquascaping Contest Biotope Category, and some of the comments by the clueless m*ppets who judged it.
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2009.cgi?&op=showcase&category=1&vol=-1&id=117.

and Bob said
"It became quite obvious to me that water is not some thing you can make "Less" by adding"
I think this is the heart of the issue, especially for this sort of fish, it's like adding sugar to coffee, you can adjust the levels so your drink isn't bitter any more, but you still have coffee at the end and the more sugar you add the further away from water you are.

cheers Darrel

 

[jerry58]

Hi
Thanks Rabbit,dw1305,macvsog23.
I think all you are telling me makes a lot of good sense to me and will take in and digest it.
I know you can find out more by asking rather than doing and experimenting on something somebody has already achieved.
I am aware that it is not easy to adjust PH in water,this always turns back to what it was in the first place.
My original plan was to use RO and natural remedies in the filter and such.
I will not be using the C02 route this is not what I was after,I do appreciate you informative input.

Thanks again to you all.

Jerry

 

[FF MkII]

Is that your tank Darrel? I have seen that somewhere recently

 

[dw1305]

No,
It is Lukasz (Ruki), it was posted on Apistogramma forums (so you probably saw it there), or on the AGA site.

I still haven't set up my other tanks back up (at work) other than the shrimp tank, but these are the Apistogramma cacatuoides in my kitchen.

The strange looking "male" is my original female, she is almost 4 years old now, and has decided to go "transvestite" in her old age. I'd just given the plants a trim so I decided to take a photo to prove that there are actually some fish in there.

cheers Darrel