Help Setting Up An Indoor Pond

[GinChinSing]

Hello, new here.

I've kept fish for several years, but always in glass tanks. I've come to the point where it will probably be less expensive building an indoor pond than to buy a large fish tank for my oscar cichlid, pleco, and three aquatic turtles. So, I am beginning the planning stages of a pond. I'm not handy so I'll need all the help I can get, if possible. I have a lot of questions and want to confirm a few things. This is a project that will take place after I move, which will be in the next three months. I am unsure of how much room I will have but I'm planning on as big as I can afford and know it will be placed in the basement.

I am planning on keeping the fish in with the turtles and am going to have live plants in the pond. I am also going to try my hand at raising shrimp for the turtles, but that may be a no-go if I can't keep them alive. I haven't tried yet, so who knows.

So, on to my initial plans:

I am planning at least a 300 gallon pond, which will be indoors, with a probably turtle table attached (land area). There will be three turtles, one pleco, shrimp, and an oscar to begin with, though I see the possibility of more plecos coming my way in the future if there is room. There will be live plants and plenty of hiding places.

Right now, I am looking into pond liners. So far in my research, I have discovered that most agree a pleco will not completely destroy a pond liner with either spines or rasping. Now the question is what kind of liner?

I am thinking a 45 mil liner would do the trick, but I'm not sure of what brand I should use. I want the highest quality I can afford so that hopefully it will last until I can afford my own house and the dream tanks I have in mind (think two 1,000 gallons and two 10,000 gallons :drool. What should I look for in a pond liner? All these names are a little confusing at present... PVC, EPDM, UV Stabilizer... They mean nothing to me at the moment besides what they are made out of. I do know that I would like it to be thick enough and safe enough for me to walk on if I need to. I weigh just over 200 pounds currently (broke my hip, sucks not being able to fit into my old wardrobe).

I am uncertain of the length, width, and depth I'm going to do, but I imagine it will be at least four feet deep and go from there. I know both oscars and plecos can be jumpers, having had experienced both on more than one occasion. I know the deeper I make it, the less likely I'll have to worry about a jump of death. I know plecos can generally wriggle their way back to water if they land within a few feet. The oscar may not be so lucky, but I'm hoping there won't be much reason to jump.

I also am guessing I need to have an underlay of some sorts. I haven't looked into that just yet so I really have no plans besides "probably get one".

I'm also unsure of what type of stone I will be using to make my indoor pond all pretty on the outside. I imagine cinder blocks will be used to form the majority of the pond shape and then I'll probably end up using a pretty colored stone for the outside wall.

Any input on what I've said so far? Thanks!

 

[Lornek8]

Do you currently keep your turtles with the fish?
I'd recommend against it if at all possible, its simply asking for trouble. Turtles are pretty dirty overall and when combined iwth oscars and plecs (two of the dirtiest fish), will create a maintenance nightmare.

I've had an indoor pond before made with wood and a pond liner, it lasted for over 20 years before it was finally disassembled. It housed various catfish and cichlids during its time with no ill effect in any way. The pond had app 12" walls (2" over waterline) and I can't recall ever having a fish jump out.

I would be careful with cinder block unless you plan to cement it in place. Cinder block has no structural integrity (against side load) to it so a 4 foot high pond would most likely break the cinder walls. If you do indeed cement the wall in place then I'd forgo the liner and simply coat the concrete with a waterproof epoxy paint designed for ponds. In the long-run you'll have less problems but proper planning is more important.

 

[GinChinSing]

Proper planning is definitely why I'm here. I'll rethink the cinder blocks. Do you think a wooden frame with plywood sides would be a better base to put a liner in? I'm thinking perhaps like some of the cichlid keepers build plywood tanks.

The pleco and oscar were an unplanned addition so I'm scrambling to make it work until I move. The turtles don't bother the fish at all and the fish are still settling. I did see the funniest thing this morning after my rabbits woke me up. I went by the tank and saw the oscar was right behind one of my turtles with his lips on the edge of the turtle's shell. The turtle, Fish, started waking up when I turned on the light and moved forward a bit and the oscar was still mostly asleep but was awake enough to follow the turtle as she moved. I think the oscar just wanted to make sure he had protection.

Anyway, at this point I haven't seen any aggression and I don't have another tank available to me except for a 20 gallon, which won't do at all. If they can all wait until after I move, then the fish can have the 75 gallon until I locate a larger tank of at least 150 gallons. I do understand why most say that turtles and fish shouldn't go together but my turtles have never tried to taste fish, even when I bought feeders to give them especially. I also divide their food up into four meals per day and so far haven't had any competition (except for between the turtles themselves).

Do you think if I manage to fit a 500 gallon pond into my new place's basement and provide as many caves as possible that it might work out? My turtles are pretty small at the moment and I'm hoping that within the next two years I'll have enough money saved up to buy my own house, which will mean a couple thousand gallon outdoor pond for the turtles.

Also, seeing as my filter broke, on the 15th I am going to buy three canister filters, which should keep the little 75 gallon pretty clean. I'm going for triple the actual gallon of their new pond at least.

 

[Lornek8]

The filters will keep the tank "looking" clean but the water won't really be all that clean. When the various animals produce waste in the aquarium, the bacteria in the filters will break down the ammonia waste to less toxic components. The issue with the turtles and the particular fish are that they are messy, both in terms of the amount of waste they produce and the mess they create when eating. The waste ends up in the filters where it breaks down. In the end nitrates build up in the water and these aren't removed unless water changes are performed. With fish and turtles sharing the tank you'll end up changing the water much more often than if you kept each individually. this pertains to both the aquarium and the pond. It doesn't matter how much filtration you have, the amount of nitrates produced and the frequency of water changes is soley dependent on the amount of waste produced and uneaten food that makes it to the filters.

A plywood tank could work. The taller the tank/pond, the stronger the reinforcement required. At 4 feet high plywood alone will not suffice & you'd need to look at additional beams for support.

 

[GinChinSing]

I would be doing a water change every week either way, whether they are all in one tank or more. I've always tested the water with an API master kit and until my filter broke on my 75 the other day, I had 0-.25 ammonia at any given time. The only time I have ammonia spikes is when the turtles decide that it's beneath them to eat their veggies and as soon as I see there is any ammonia, I get a water change going. I am buying a new filter tomorrow as I happened across a cash stash I forgot about when I was packing my closet. I know I'm still going to get a cycle bloom, but there's not much I can do about it at the moment sadly.

Personally, I don't think ammonia would be too big of a problem in a really large pond of at least 300 gallons. The turtles are small and the fish, while they will get big, won't be anything I'm not familiar with. I also plan on having live plants which will help stabilize the water and I plan on gardening weekly as I expect the fish and turtles to destroy and kill plants often enough to need it.

 

[Lornek8]

Ammonia isn't the primary concern as the filters should take care of it if filtration is adequate. But any amount of ammonia is really too much. What you really need to be looking at is the nitrate. Ammonia gets processed by the filters and eventually goes away. If filtration is adequate you never see ammonia. Nitrates however only go away with water changes and/or live plants. Though if the plants are being destroyed by the turtles and fish you can't really expect them to contribute much. Thus you'd be counting on water changes. If the level of nitrates is not being removed quickly enough by large water changes then it could build to a toxic level.

 

[GinChinSing]

I understand you are trying to help and I hope I don't come off as rude as I'm not trying to be, but I'm very familiar with water quality in regards to fish. I used to take in abandoned fish and find them better homes. I used to be a member of Tetra-fish before they shut down the forum and learned mostly from their members. I honestly don't feel water quality will be an issue as I do test and water changes every week, or sometimes twice if the turtles are being extra stubborn with their food.

I am exploring different setup possibilities, but as I do not know the size of my new place's basement, most of this is just thought at the moment. I should know more at the end of the month. I am considering, if there is room, having a large enough pond to divide it into three or four "cages". As I was only thinking about building the actual pond in the beginning of the thread, I hadn't mentioned too much about the landscaping beyond basics. I was initially hoping to have the pond divided into two parts - the turtle and fish area and then the plant growing section - which would be separated by a turtle-safe screen of some sorts to keep little mouths away. I would also have the heaters in with the plants as one of my turtles likes laying next to the one in the current tank and I'm always worried about burns. There would still be plants in the living space for the fish and turtles to eat or destroy, but there would be some they couldn't reach. I'm also hoping if there are enough plants, then they won't be able to kill all of it. I would like java moss or another ground cover plant to use as substrate of sorts. I think it would be great and give them something better to walk on besides hard rocks. I know java moss will basically cover anything that sits still long enough (the pleco may be in trouble there. Lol)

I really do hope you understand that I am pretty experienced with keeping fish. I would like to share some stories as time goes on, especially about this oscar my sister's boss gave me. It was absolutely horrible! That's another thread though. I do want what is best for the animals, which is why I am starting so far ahead in planning. I hope to have the new pond up and running before Thanksgiving, even if I have to change a few things around until everything works.

 

[Lornek8]

Sorry, didn't mean any offense but the posts that I was presented with seemed to indicate that there were some misconceptions or misunderstandings with regards to water conditions. However if you feel comforatble with your knowledge and the conditions that the animals are kept in then i'll let it go.

In all other aspects there really isn't any reason an indoor pond can't work. You'll probably want an underlayment, partly for puncture protection (which on a finished concrete floor isn't really required) but more for insulation depending on the basement floor. Heating could be a big issue, again depending on how the basement is furnished. Another issue to consider is the vast amounts of moisture that would be introduced into the house interior by a large heated open-topped pond. Unless this moisture is dealt with it could lead to big problems with mold, especially with today's emphesis on energy efficient homes.

 

[beencees]

Sent you a PM with a little info. Can't wait to see the pics of this once it gets underway.
Good luck with it:thumbup:

 

[GinChinSing]

No worries Lorinek8, I sometimes forget that no one else knows all the stuff I have packed in my head. I'm usually on a different page while others are trying to catch up to figure out what I'm talking about.

Here's the transcript from Tetra-fish about the water cycle and how I learned. I had to dig up most of the good articles via Wayback Machine because they've closed everything down over there and I wanted to keep it in case they ever do away with it completely. (Please note that I am not taking credit for the information and all still belongs to Tetra-fish)

Behind every beautifully clear aquarium with impeccable water condition…
(Photo of amazingly clear tank)
… is the gigantic mess that got it there…
(Photo of writer's messy fish closet)


Water quality is something that you will hear about from your very first day in the hobby all the way through your last. Good quality water is also one of the most important aspects of the life of your aquarium. It is achieved through dedication, patience, and the proper tools and techniques. This thread is intended to give the beginner, as well as the novice, a good idea of want it takes to maintain your water at a level most beneficial to the tank inhabitants.

Nowhere is water quality more important than at the very beginning of your tank's existence. The infamous nitrogen cycle; the epicenter of much heartache for beginners. Ask anyone worth their salt in this hobby what's the best way for your fish to survive the initial cycle and you will hear two very important words: Water Change. A quick check of any website discussing aquariums will reveal suggestions of changing water anywhere between once or twice month to once a week. I am a big proponent of the partial wear change, or PWC, although I feel that changing water only once a week will still lead to less than optimal water quality in most aquariums. Therefore, I preform water changes on both my tanks once every other day.

The most important tool in maintaining healthy water is a test kit:
(Photo of API Master Test Kit)

Here is what a water test kit should reveal in an already cycled tank (pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate):
(Photo of mostly acceptable test results: pH 7.6+, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates about 10ppm)

My pH shows a little high but it remains constant at 7.5 and the fish don't seem bothered by it. You'll notice my ammonia and nitrite readings are at a steady zero. My nitrates would be considered normal in most cases, but it should be lower in my opinion. So, it's time to go to work. In anything 20 gallons or smaller, a standard siphon works fine for water changes and it looks like this:
(Photo of standard siphon)

Any tank larger than this and you'll need to break out the heavy artillery. I am able to perform as many water changes as I do thanks to the Python, and here it is:
(Photo of Python siphon)

If you use the Python exactly as described in the instructions, you will waste a whole lot of clean tap water. I prefer to simply activate the siphon manually and hang the drain end of the tub over the tub's edge…
(Photo of Python draining in tub)

Gravity will take care of the rest. It happens very quickly so stay close!
(Photo of tank draining)

10-15 minutes later and we're halfway home…
(Photo of tank 50% drained)

This is about the normal level to with I drain at each water change. It's around 50% and contrary to what is widely passed around as fact, the cycle does NOT start over if you take out more than 50% of your water as I take that out and sometimes more on a regular basis. Now it's time for the refilling portion, and the adapter that facilitates this from the tap looks like this:
(Photo of Python attached to sink)

You simply connect the drain end to the valve on the side of this thing and twist the bottom switch shut and you are ready to refill. Another invaluable piece of the water quality puzzle looks like this:
(Photo of digital thermometer)

The digital thermometer. Easy to read and very accurate, this will allow you to very closely match the temperature of the water you are putting in to that of which you extracted. As soon as you begin refilling, you will need to add dechlorinator/conditioner to the water. Here are a couple of good choices:
(Photo of Aquasafe and API Stress Coat)

All that's left is to wait until your water line climbs within about an inch of your canopy. Shut the water off and do a final check of your temperature.

And now for a second check of the nitrates…
(Photo of second Nitrate test, showing at 10ppm)

There we go. That's what I like to see. Keep in mind that this is the schedule I keep for my fully cycled tanks. Aquariums that are in the midst of the cycle will need to do this perhaps daily depending on how high that ammonia reading creeps up. The PWC may seem boring, tedious, daunting and monotonous to the majority, but if made a habit, it will become second nature. Dedicate yourself to it and it will pay dividends in a very short time. Your fish will thank you with nice shiny skin, clear eyes and lots of activity, and you'll be able to enjoy it all through a crystal clear water column.

--Regards

(Written by LeggoMyPleco, 01-05-2008 at 8:44pm)

Somewhere in the site it lists what the acceptable levels are, or maybe it's on the bottles of the API kits too.

You did bring up a point I'd forgotten about though: the humidity and the structure of the house. I never really worried about it, but I don't think I've had 300+ gallons of water constantly evaporating. This house is an older house, but I'm not sure how much older. I'll have to look it up. I wasn't planning on having a cover, just a wall tall enough to prevent turtle escapes. Though, I haven't figured out how to keep the cats out yet either.

I don't suppose having a closed system like a botanical garden's greenhouse would be wise. The turtles would be in constant rain and the lights wouldn't handle that well. I can only imagine the damage to the lights themselves and how unhappy the turtles would be with it raining all the time! After a quick search, mainly regarding fish tanks and not turtle tanks, it looks like even a few fans would help, assuming there will be windows down there. Now the question is if a dehumidifier (or 50) would balance everything out. With winter coming on, keeping windows open probably isn't wise. I am currently reading a thread on the very subject and there is mention of an HRV, which I'm not entirely sure of what it is other than a "type of exhaust system". I know the relative humidity should be less than 50% and the lower it is, the more evaporation from the pond.

I also came across a photo from someone's fish room that had a nifty little thing by AcuRite. It is called a Digital Humidity and Temperature Monitor and has the current humidity/temperature, daily high and low readies and a comfort level icon to convey a low, high, or ideal humidity level. The one I'm looking at on AcuRite's site is only $15 and seems like a great buy.

So, I guess I need to figure out the humidity thing first. I'll need to look up HRVs, Air Exchange systems, and dehumidifiers. I know it would be a lot more helpful if I knew what the basement was like. I'm hoping to find out in the next week. I'm paying a friend to find me a new rental because I'm too lazy to do it myself. Lol