KH, GH query

[tiffanyjayne]

I've got a 4 foot tank hold 9x adult 134's, yet to breed but all in good nick, 3 hi fin cories, 3 pygmy cories and 2 small groups of apisto's

I've tested all of my water and everything seems fine but every now and again i lose a fish, i've checked my water against the lfs water and we seem to have the same stats so i'm wondering what my kh and gh should be at to keep the pleco's happy (if it upsets the other fish, that's fine i can move them)

i'm currently holding Kh 1, Gh 11 but my plecos didn't come from a shop just the others in there so matching up with them isn't any clues for my plecos.

Thanks for any help.

 

[mike0605]

I'm by no means an expert but have got a lot of advice off other members and you really need your KH between 4 and 6 (i think)

Also do you have a tds meter? The total disolved solids in your water is an important factor. Do you use treated tapwater or a hma water filter system?

If you post up your ph, kh,gh and a tds reading one of the experienced guys will be able to advise you.

I purchased a hand held tds meter off ebay cost me about £13.00. This basically gives you a guide of the amount of disolved solids within your water. Ideally plecos require this level to be low/reduced somewhat from the levels which are within most peoples tapwater.

The best way is to mix a percentage of ro filtered water or gathered rain water with hma filtered water. The percentage split would be subject to a couple of experiments and tests as everyones tapwater can be different depending on the source.

For example what works for me is 50% ro with 50% hma filtered water and the plan is to reduce hma to 25% with 75% ro water when trying to filter a spawn. I haven't actually bought the units yet as they are not cheap but i worked this out from buying some ro water from a local fish store and doing a couple of ph/kh/gh tests and tds tests.

Looking at your water it looks like you would need to use ro or ro mixed with tapwater but either way it seems you would have to re-mineralise to buffer up the KH and obviously is using only ro all the other elements.

If you have or could get a tds meter and provide a reading one of the more experienced guys would be able to help further and confirm if I have gone wrong above

Thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Kh 1, Gh 11

The water parameters are a little bit strange, do you know the TDS value? are you adding something to raise the GH (calcium chloride?)? Having said that unless you are adding CO2? or have a large fish load? they should be all right. You may want to raise the dKH a little (use potassium bi-carbonate) if you think your pH may sometimes fall to below pH6?

The 2 most likely options are either fighting (you have a lot of bottom dwellers), the P. compta may be fighting either amongst themselves or with the Apistogramma, this can lead to lethal stress even if the fish aren't killed in the fights. You will also get competition for caves. If it is the Cories? you may find it is the Apistogramma bullying them.

The other option is water quality, f the tank isn't planted? due to insufficient oxygen or acidosis damaging the biological filtration. If the tank is planted water quality is less of an issue, but you may still have problems over-night if flow speed drops and CO2 builds up. If you think it may be a water issue have a look here: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>

cheers Darrel

 

[tiffanyjayne]

Heres my tank details i'm hoping this will give you a better idea.

4foot tank

9x 134's (7 caves) 4 males 5 females
i had 3 hi fin cories, 3 pygmy cories, i now have 2 of each.
2 male apistos 4 females
oh and a 191 who's tiny and doesn't eat a great deal.
My 134's don't move, the males have there set caves and there is no signs of aggression, they have lived together since very young and some of the caves are no in use.
The apisto's get on great, the females all group together and i've never seen the males even case each other off, there all still very young so i'm not to panicy about breeding from them so that sie of aggression can't be an issue.

mY PH IS 7.4 it's the same in most of my tanks, my tds reading is 350 ppm.

I have various peices of bog wood in there, plant pots and plants to help the females hides should the male apistos feel the need to chase them and the pygmy cories.

All other readings are 0 except nitrAtes which are 15.

i used treated tap water, using RO seemed to cause more loses when i last used it so i stopped. i don't use anything to higher/lower anything in my tank.

My ph is 6.8 out of the tap but higher in the tank because i use coral sand.

I have an exteral filter running 24/7, an interal running 24/7 a sponge power head for flow and oxygen and another power head for flow, the power heads are at opposite ends of the tank, both power heads are turned off for 20 minutes a day during feeding.

I would agree i have alot of bottom dwellers, if i saw the 134's move....ever. however they all seem to have designated spots so the only things moving around the tank is the cories and they stay at the ends of the tank where there are no other fish or caves.

Thank you all for your replies.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but higher in the tank because i use coral sand.

Something is wrong here with the measurements, if you have coral sand in the tank you can't have dKH1? I'm still not sure it isn't aggression, I never see my L129 (even after lights out) but recently I've found I still have 5, and they are a lot bigger than they were, so they must be active at some point in the night.

cheers Darrel

 

[tiffanyjayne]

I'm using a liquid kit that i bought about 3 months ago so i'm assuming still very much in date and it gave me 1....i can re test and see if there's any change.

I simply put it down to a bad lfs/bad stock/importer which is fine i don't mine losing a fish now and again, when you have as many tanks and fish as i do you expect it with new comers but i'd like to get my kh/gh right to suit the 134's, the females are very large in the tummy area and seem to stay close to the caves but never entering them and the males don't seem to come out to let them in so as my stats are all fine i'm hoping changing the kh/gh may make them want to breed.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd try and have a re-test, it is possible that you are getting acidification from the nitrogen cycle (NH3 -> NO3 + H2O and a spare H+) exhausting your carbonate buffering. If this is the case you should see your coral sand dissolving fairly quickly. You could check this by weighing the bag it is in every week and recording the weight loss.

As long as the water isn't really hard and/or salt rich, quality is probably more important than parameters for L134, so I'd try and keep your water changes up, feed a variety of food and see what happens.

cheers Darrel

 

[tiffanyjayne]

Sorry i'm a little lost....weighing the bag it is in?

It covers the bottom of my tank.

I'm currently water changing 25% twice a week, re test shows kh 6, gh 12

Not sure if that's any better?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

coral sand .... It covers the bottom of my tank.

I think we might be getting somewhere now, coral sand is really unsuitable for most fish that don't come from naturally very hard waters (marines, African Rift Lakes, some Central American lakes etc.). Peckoltia compta (L134) comes from the Rio Tapajos, which is a "white water" river, but has very little in the way of carbonate buffering (dKH) or hardness (dGH). This is entirely different from your tank with its coral sand, which will continue to dissolve into Ca2+ and 2HCO3- ions until the water is fully saturated with HCO3 ions and CO2 & HCO3 are in equilibrium (the exact value for this will depend upon the amount of CO2 in the water, but it will then be very hard water with a high dGH and dKH).

I would strongly recommend removing the coral sand, and replacing it with fairly coarse, inert silica sand. I think it is only then that your water levels will settle down to something like their stable "real" values, and you will get an idea of what they truly are.

Have a look here: <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1752>

cheers Darrel

 

[tiffanyjayne]

The trouble i have is my water is almost too soft for most fish, so while yes the coral may be making the water harder and causing an issue by the time i've done 2 water changes in the week i'm back to extremely soft water again, so the coral isn't really getting chance to make my water too hard.

I do not know of any other way of hardening my water without using chemicals and such.

My ph in tanks with no coral is 6.0-6.4 if i'm lucky and these fish came from 7.4 so i needed a solution and coral sand was the most recommended.

The kh has indeed risen as i havent water changed since the last reading which was taken just after a wc but i have no doubt when i wc tomorrow i will find my kh has gone down yet again.


I'm happy to take the coral sand out i'm just worried doing so and adding fresh water will give the fish a shock and cause my ph to drop an awful lot over a short space of time. Would this happen? if so i'm assuming on each wc day to take a little out at a time over a 2-3 week period until the tank is bare.

I don't use white sand in my tanks...ever i can't stand the stuff so it's gravel, black sand or nothing.

Thank you very much for your help, i really appriciate you taking the time to answer my 120 questions

 

[Lornek8]

How soft is your unbuffered water?
pH of 6-6.4 is pretty good for most plecs. When you say they came from ph7.4 what do you mean ecxactly? Were they bred/raised in ph7.4 or do you mean that's what they were kept at prior to you obtaining them?

 

[tiffanyjayne]

The guy i bough them off kept them in 7.4 and has had them since very small, now at full adult age which i'm assuming takes a wee while.

My water is kh 1 ph 6.2 in most tanks.

Un waterchanged water for 1 week becomes 7.4, kh 6.
which i thought i could of lowered every so slightly by the masses of bogwood and coconut shells in the tank but apparently not, or it is doing and without all of it i'd have it at ph9 :dk:

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Do you have the water company parameters for your water? I assume your water company would be "Severn-Trent".

There is nothing wrong with using coral sand to raise your dKH, it just isn't very controllable. Haver a look at this thread (and links): <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8904>.

cheers Darrel

 

[tiffanyjayne]

Darrel where have you been all my life?
Your like a little book of valuable knowledge

Thank you so much for your help, i think i understand it now so i'll start removing the coral sand today but i'll do it in 4 lots so it doesn't bounce too much and overly shock the fish then i'll sort my stats out when i know there actual readings.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thank you so much for your help

No problem, it only since I worked in the lab., and had people explain it to me in terms I could follow, that I've begun to understand "buffering" etc. Looking at your other threads you are obviously an experienced fish keeper, your fish look really good so you must be doing the right things.

cheers Darrel