Losing Too Many Fish

[rphox2003]

I think I'm losing too many fish. I have a 220 liter Mbuna tank and haven't lost a fish in over a year. But I started with plecos in January and think I'm losing too many. I've lost 2 or 3 within a week or so of purchase, and now a few of the replacements (L201 and L081) both died in the last 24 hours. I had both for just over a month and saw both eating at one time or another.

• Fish: The plecos are the only fish in the tank and none are bigger than 7-8cm. L190, L200, L340, L144, L201, L081
• Tank: A Juwel 700 with the Juwel Bioflow 280 filter plus a smaller internal filter that I added for some water movement.
• Feeding: Cucumbers or zucchini 1-2 times per week plus algae wafers and shrimp pellets.
• Maintenance: 20-30% water changes with gravel vacuum twice a week.
• Gravel: A very thin layer (I can see the glass in places) to prevent waste buildup and make it easier to vacuum.

I never noticed any signs of sickness. I just found both dead on the bottom of the tank. Could it be because I don't have an airstone? Are plecos more fragile than other types? Any ideas?

 

[Lornek8]

What are your water parameter readings (ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, hardness)?
Seems pretty heavily stocked, stress & water conditions could be a issue.
There are many incopatible plecs in the same tank (diet wise) though the latest to pass are pretty omnivorous/carnivorous, usually diet is an issue with herbivorous plecs. Could also be stress related. Most plecs are wild-caught and unless they are acclimated to the aquarium correctly can do poorly. This can be exhasperated in a highly stocked tank as the newest additions will probably encounter some territorialism from the established fish. Thus the new additions never really settle in an suffer. Also, being wild-caught most come in with some form of internal disease and are suffering from the rigors of importation. Without the opportunity to settle into a tank and regain some strength and overcome some of the diseases the plecs suffer when exposed to the competition of the other tankmates. One of the biggest lessons to learn when keeping plecs is how to deal with acclimating and handling wild-caught fish.

Plecs aren't necessarily fragile so long as their needs are met. Most plecs require well aerated water & come from areas of higher flows. If oxygen is an issue you should notice plecs hanging close to the top. My recommendation is to research your tank additions a little more prior to purchase. Try your best to get plecs that are compatible both environmentally & dietary.

 

[jamous91]

are all the fish from the same store and how long have you had ur tank

 

[jessonthenet]

plecs are pretty high waste producers so a 70 litre tank may not be good enough. especially the L190. I know you said they are small at the moment but something to think about.

If plecs seem to be at the top for air more than usual could be oxygen or if they just stay on the glass near the top more often than returning to the bottom. If they do this I would run an airstone anyway and maybe lift your outlet on your filter a little higher to push oxygen into the water more, like a waterfall providing it isn't soaking your lights.

If you see plecs sitting fanning, won't eat or generally seem restless I would test water straight away especially for PH. They don't always just fan because they want to breed can be a sign of distress. Look for excessive slime coats, an indication water may not be right and must be tested. Excessive slime coats is a built in auto response to protect the fish from diseases usually due to poor water.

I don't think plecs are more difficult but if it is an issue with oxygen it is dependent on the type of plec and what waters they are from as some are naturally evolved for less oxygenated parts of the river where they live.

e.g. an anthax plecs from fast flowing waters would die from lack of oxygen well before it would affect a L114 since it is from less oxygenated parts of the amazon. Some plecs can breathe from the air and some can't and if they are having to surface to breathe from the air than the tank is not oxygenated enough.

 

[rphox2003]

1. They are not all from the same source. But I've had cichlids for over 10 years so I know the stores in my area that are trustworthy.
2. I know they produce a lot of waste. I do a 30% water change and vacuum the gravel at least twice (sometimes three times) a week.
3. I never noticed any of them near the top of the tank. Anyway I've increased the air output one of the filters to increase oxygen in the water. Although for my cichlids, I don't even have an airstone. I've read that airstones really don't do anything, whereas surface turbulence does more to increase gas exchange.

Either way, I have four plecs remaining - L190, L200, L340, and L144 and will not even think about adding another one for a few months.

 

[jessonthenet]

airstones must do something as that is what I added when I had problems with my tank as the things I described to you are from experience. Within an hour of switching an airstone on full my fish recovered. My problems may of been slightly different than yours but adding an airstone does make a difference. Lifting the filter output would move the surface more and help gas exchange like you mentioned and an airstone would if on high enough be able to move some of the surface.

People using sponge filters alone and aerobic bacteria need oxygen to survive so air pumped in through a tube must provide oxygen to sponge filter bacteria.

I always run an airstone alongside my external but it has a sponge attached to it so that if needed I can set an emergency/hospital tank up straight away plus it adds more potential bacteria anyway.

Higher temps deplete oxygen too.

We don't even know oxygen is an issue but a possible factor. Like mentioned you need to provide water readings.


perhaps you need to do a smaller water change at a time. Once you know the ph of your water and that in the tank it can give you an idea of potential ph swings. Sudden temperature changes also.

You know a lot about cichlids but it would be a bit like me thinking I can keep marine. Each species is different and like I said plecs are from all over the amazon and a lot of water types and different diets.

I have angels and that does not mean I know or are able to keep discus, even a couple of degrees out in temp could stress and kill them.

I research each plec I own, even each fish and I find a black widow tetra is very different to a cardinal even though very closely related.

Get a testing kit if you don't already have one or take a water sample to a lfs for testing which might not be as accurate since they normally use cheap strips.

Another thing mentioned was territorial issues which I agree with since it is only 70 litres, could another plec be killing them?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Sorry for your losses,it is always horrible when you have fish die. I'd agree with "LorneK" and "jessonthenet", and I would suspect oxygenation and/or biological filtration issues. Although this may seem a bit strange, they are often one and the same thing.

You may have are water issues, particularly to do with hardness and salinity. Although a lot of plecs come from the "white water" rivers of S. America, where there are some bases, this water is still very soft, and low in dissolved salts. If your tap water is very hard and/or slightly saline (I note you are in Israel, and keep Malawi cichlids) this will further stress your fish.

Another issue that can cause stress is cover, most plecs are the opposite of Mbuna in that they need both space and cover for territories, or they become stressed. Stressed plecs are very likely to become dead plecs.

Have a look a these articles: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=144> & <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

cheers Darrel

 

[rphox2003]

I just found my L340 dead on the bottom of the tank. He looked fine this morning. I've had him for just over a month.

I've had my 190 for over three months. I just don't understand it.

I think I'm going to throw in the towel on plecs.

 

[jessonthenet]

I wouldn't do that I would test your water for ph, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. If all the readings seem ok then you can rule those out. Increase aeration, do a water change once you have got current readings of tank water and water from the tap or whatever you use.

Is the L190 aggressive ? If that is the only ever survivor I would see if it is killing the others. My L191 is quite a misery, the worst in the tank so I would keep an eye on the royal.

Can you rule out poisoning, could you have introduced a disease with new fish?

 

[rphox2003]

I'm debating whether to spend the $$ on a test kit or shut down the tank. I guess I can save it for a quarantine tank when I get my 1.5 meter in a few months.

• I've had plenty of air going into the tank for the last 3 or 4 days.
• I haven't added any fish in over a month.
• The L190 doesn't look/act aggressive. And none of the dead fish show any signs of injury. In fact, when I find them on the bottom, they look alive. They just don't move.

I'm at a loss. When I talk to my lfs, they say that plecs shouldn't be that hard to maintain.

 

[rphox2003]

One more thing - I find it hard to believe ANY of the plecos in my area are wild-caught. When buying cichlids, the wild-caught, F1, etc... are always advertised and priced as such. I'm fairly certain that all my plecos are farm-bred.

 

[Lornek8]

L190 hasn't been bred in captivity, L081 as well, L200 only a few times. So while the Hypancistrus may be bred, the remainder are probable wild-caught.

You really should consider a test kit. Losing essentially a tank full of fish gets expensive, much more so than a test kit. It'll also help in the future to determine what is wrong. Obviously something is wrong and without knowing water parameters we need to guess about a lot of things.

 

[rphox2003]

Learn something new every day...

 

[jessonthenet]

I'm debating whether to spend the $$ on a test kit or shut down the tank. I guess I can save it for a quarantine tank when I get my 1.5 meter in a few months.

• I've had plenty of air going into the tank for the last 3 or 4 days.
• I haven't added any fish in over a month.
• The L190 doesn't look/act aggressive. And none of the dead fish show any signs of injury. In fact, when I find them on the bottom, they look alive. They just don't move.

I'm at a loss. When I talk to my lfs, they say that plecs shouldn't be that hard to maintain.

Nothing is difficult to maintain when placed in the correct conditions.

 

[rphox2003]

Another thing mentioned was territorial issues which I agree with since it is only 70 litres, could another plec be killing them?

That got me thinking. The only constant in the tank since I started it has been water and my L190. He was my first purchase. Last night I noticed my L144 at the top of the tank - with its mouth close to the waterline. But he looked fine. This morning its on the filter intake vent without its long, flowing tail. I also thought I noticed the tail of my L200 looking a bit ragged last night but couldn't get a good look.

Could my 190 be killing off everything? I have a root in the tank with a hollow trunk that exits to the front and back, and they all seem to hide there at different times. It also has many inter-weaving branches where they hide. So there are hiding places.

But now I think its the 190. Any opinions?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Could my 190 be killing off everything? I have a root in the tank with a hollow trunk that exits to the front and back, and they all seem to hide there at different times. It also has many inter-weaving branches where they hide. So there are hiding places. But now I think its the 190. Any opinions?

Last night I noticed my L144 at the top of the tank - with its mouth close to the waterline........And none of the dead fish show any signs of injury. In fact, when I find them on the bottom, they look alive. They just don't move.

"Rphox" have you read through all of your own thread? You have oxygen issues, you need to understand the processes that control the amount of dissolved oxygen in your tank water, and take measures to increase it immediately.

You may also have other water issues that you/we don't know about, as you haven't got any tests to test your water with. Wild collected plecs from soft water will be stressed in very salty, alkaline water.

This morning its on the filter intake vent without its long, flowing tail. I also thought I noticed the tail of my L200 looking a bit ragged last night but couldn't get a good look.

You may well have aggression problems as well, but you cannot tell at the moment, your fish are all extremely stressed, and stressed plecs are soon dead plecs.

Until you have got the dissolved oxygen levels high enough at all times for your fish to be healthy, you will carry on suffering from fish death.

cheers Darrel

 

[rphox2003]

Until you have got the dissolved oxygen levels high enough at all times for your fish to be healthy, you will carry on suffering from fish death.

cheers Darrel

Thanks for the advice Darrel, but you should also read my posts. Please note my post from last week that my internal filter is throwing plenty of air (bubbles) into the tank.

I will be buying pH, nitrate, and ammonia tests tomorrow.

 

[rphox2003]

Stop the presses - I just witnessed my L190 attacking my L200! He only stopped when I approached the tank!

 

[Lornek8]

Thanks for the advice Darrel, but you should also read my posts. Please note my post from last week that my internal filter is throwing plenty of air (bubbles) into the tank.

I will be buying pH, nitrate, and ammonia tests tomorrow.

Oxygen might not be the issue but just one word of general advice. Do not judge "apropriateness" based soley upon your opinion. What I mean by this is that even if to you it looks like there is enough bubbles or a lot of oxygen going into your tank, if your fish act otherwise then you shoudl listen to your fish. The same goes for all aspects of fishkeeping, hiding places is one that is especially pertanent to plecs. It is common to see posts from keepers that say they have lots of hiding places in a tank and/or caves yet their plecs either don't use them or choose to all fight over one. The reason for this is that although to us it appears that a cave is a cave is a cave, to the fish there is a definite difference between them and they are not all suitable. For harmony to abound, more hiding places are required. From what you're observing and telling us, this may be the case for you as well.

 

[rphox2003]

Lornek8: Thanks for the input. I really do appreciate it all.

As I've stated I've been into Malawi cichlids for over 10 years, Tangs for 2 years, and even Discus for a period. I'm also an avid user of many fish forums. We all need help at times. None of us like to lose fish. Sometimes I just don't appreciate comments by some posters who feel the need to throw out inane comments.

I may have been amiss in not testing my water sooner, but - from experience - I've seen too many hobbyists get lost in testing, adding chemicals, and chasing their tails trying to get a balance. IMHO, a well-cycled tank beats chemicals anytime.

I also think the attack I witnessed tonight added strength to the other poster's theory about another pleco killing the others. Again, probably my mistake in not choosing the right tankmates.