screwed up and stuck with high ph

[zeebo]

hi guys, so before the big loss, i had ph probs , dropped like crazy and had to put crushed coral in bags in all the filters, had to change the coral every 2 weeks cuz it would begin to drop again to the lowest on the chart or lower possibly. Pain in the neck...so this time ,revamping ,I decided to put a cup of chiclid gravel in the tanks ,which brought the ph up to 8. Too high for the fish I want ,so the past month i have been slowly removing it, and yet I am still getting ph 8 readings on all the tanks. I have lost so much gravel even though i put the chiclid gravel in one area ,it's hard to get just that out. So ,yeah,it is stable , even after i have added more wood, but how can I get it down to 6.8 or 7 ? Frustrating every time i check the ph, aint dropping.
My tap water is about 7.9, HOWEVER , i have been doing less wc's as i have less fish now. Obviously I should have started with less chiclid gravel and added more as needed , but the deed is done :wb:, and not sure how to correct it . Any ideas ? Should I just keep taking more gravel/chiclid gravel out and then replace the regular gravel i am loosing ? I dont want to use anything that will change the water color,it is clear and prefer to keep it that way. appreciate any advice . If I keep loosing my regular gravel ,will it cause a mini cycle ? sorry for all the questions but I really want to get my plecs and other fish...it has been long enough.

Thanks, Georgie

 

[Lornek8]

Do you know the hardness of your water (gh and/or kh)?
Does your house run a water softner?

What sounds like is going on is that you're tap water is naturally low in dissolved minerals, so gh and kh are probably pretty low. It's kind of a strange situation as higher pH water rarely has low gh/kh. But due to the low gh/kh the water is unstable and thus the pH would change wildly over time, naturally dropping probably due to the acidity of the fish waste. When you added the coral and now the cichlid gravel you now raised the gh/kh and made the water more stable, thus the reason the pH is remaining closer to that of the tap water. I am stuck on a way to drop the pH while keeping the hardness stable, you could add buffers but I personally hate doing that. See if you can get some water parameter readings and that could help with determining a solution.

 

[zeebo]

thanks Lorne,I will get the kh/gh reading tomorrow. So what are buffers and may I ask why you dont prefer them ?

Do you think I should take out more of the chiclid gravel(it has gotten spread around some, hence why I am loosing my regular gravel when scooping it out) the goal being to take out just enough to get the ph steady at 6.8 or a bit lower to 6.3, but with this problem, I'd be happy to get it to 6.8. I have 2 adult L128's on hold and NEED them in my tank:yes:

No house water softener. When I wash my husband's jeans, i hang them to dry so they wont shrink - hard to find 36'' inseam jeans, and when they dry , they can stand on their own !

be back with the tests in am.
thanks , you got exactly the problem... and appreciate your willingness to help me figure this out

Georgie

 

[Lornek8]

Buffers are things that affect the water parameters. They can be a variety of things depending on what you're trying to accomplish, both natural and artificial. These are like the ph7 or neutral buffer type products as well as some that can be used to affect hardness. I don't like buffers as your constantly chasing yourself around and testing. You add a little, test, add some more, test, add to much, add something else, test add some more, test, etc. Then you water change and start all over. The fish are living in a constant state of flux and it's simply not good for anyone.

With your water conditions I have a feeling that you won't be able to get where you want without using a different source of water. Think you'll have to go the route of rainwater, di or ro water. Either that or possibly use driftwood, peat or Indian almond leaves to naturally bring the water down. Problem is going to be the tannin will discolor the water.

 

[zeebo]

ok, thanks Lorne, i get what you are saying , but i wonder why removing more of the chiclid gravel until i get lower wont do the trick ? There is still more in all the tanks, just easier to see in the black gravel 54g tank. My concern was while removing the chiclid gravel , i am loosing much of my reg gravel as well, and wondered if that would cause a mini-cycle ?

Jeez, the buffer thing sounds like a real pain in the neck and something I want to avoid ,as you . that's nuts, chasing water ..

ok so, if you think my plan wont work, of continuing to remove more gravel ,then i have a few other choices. RO water ,which i have never used , or add more wood, and I have in past rid the tannis by boiling it first,so that is my best option atm. I do want more wood in there anyway , so by boiling the tannins out , am i removing the ph lowering agent from the wood ?
Thanks, Georgie

 

[Lornek8]

The pH of your tap water is fixed at 8. In order to stabilize it you add the cichlid gravel. The cichlid gravel buffers the hardness to stabilize the pH of the tap water which is 8 or thereabout. If you reduce the buffering due to the cichlid gravel the ph of the water will begin to drop most likely from the acidity of the fish waste products. But, as you've seen before with the coral (which is essentially the same as the cichlid gravel) the dropping will not stop. It'll continue to drop just more or less slow depending on the amount of gravel used. Eventually you reach a point where either the pH is too low or the nitrates are too high which then requires a water change. Being that your tap water has a high pH, the tank water ph quickly rises and fish get shocked. This is essentially what is known as old tank syndrome. And again, simply chasing water. The relationship between all the parameters is tough to understand. There is an interrelationship between them that sometimes makes it difficult to get the water where you want it.

Aquarium gravel contains very little nitrifying bacteria. Removing it all slowly shouldn't be a problem.

The tannins in driftwood is what drops the pH.

When you get the results of the tests, it should go a long way in telling us what would be required to resolve our problems.

 

[zeebo]

ok thanks Lorne , guess i couldnt beat the problem as i thought with the chiclid gravel, :wb: really bums me ...so ok, will test the water in am and post ... tgif ! thanks big time for the explanation, and now i know why all the wood I have added from my ''extras'' box has not helped ...i always boil it . your help is highly appreciated .

Georgie

 

[zeebo]

tested my tap water for kh & gh ,results : kh-4 gh-problem, the color was supposed to turn orange by counting drop s ,then green. It never turned orange ,it was light yellow to bright yellow, but never orange, and after 14 drops , i got what maybe a hint of green in the bright yellow, but never got a true green either. The test kit is API , prob about a year old, and I do recall testing one other time, and recall the same prob with the gh...that time i gave up at 30 drops :dk: so i guess i got some real problems .

also, the ph in the 20g has dropped to 7, 6 fish in there and no wood, but i have been removing the chiclid coral from there also.

I am so confused , need an easy way to keep the ph stable and lower, and not sure what the heck is up with my tap water . PLEASE HELP , i fear i will never see a pleco in my 54g :cry:

thanks,
Georgie

 

[Lornek8]

Were these results from your tank or tap? Did you let the tap water settle before taking readings?

Okay strange stuff. The fact that you have kh means you've got to have some gh. GH is referred to as General Hardness and is essentially a measrure of all dissolved minerals in your water. kH is referred to as carbonate hardness and measures the carbonates in your water which is typically picked up in the gh reading as well. Thus normal results are typically a gh a few points higher than kh possibly more depending on what's in your water. Kh is normally important as it can be an indication of how "stable" the ph of your water is. With low khs wild ph swings are possible with small changes in water chemistry.

Hardness test can be tricky to use. What you need to do is add a drop then shake, then add a drop then shake, it doesn't really work well by simply dropping the solution into the tube and waiting for a test.

How long did it take for the pH to change in the 20 gallon tank?

 

[zeebo]

hi Lorne, thanks for responding... i tested the tap water, i followed the directions of inverting the tube a few times after each drop. However it did not say to let the water sit in the tube for a while before testing...so i began the drops right after i measured to the line.

as for the 20g. , i am guessing took about a month for it to drop to 7 ,but i noticed the nitrates were high (30) , whereas the other tanks are under 10. Just did a small wc on the 20 and took the last 2 celebes outta there to add to the group in the 54g, ,as i had purchased 7 at one time and spread them in groups to different tanks, so no amonia probs, and just got the last in today. There is a total of 11 fish in the 54g now.

so back to the high ph prob, do you think it will drop in the 54 eventually as it did in the 20? the 30g is still holding at 8 also and the wood i added is usless to for this prob, although the fish love it. Or , should i re-test after letting the water sit a while ?

sorry for all the questions but appreciate your help ...this is exhausing as i have been removing the chiclid gravel for a month now .

gotta get some sleep now but pls let me knw what you think . thanks big time

Georgie

 

[zeebo]

Still having ph problems, tested the kh/gh after letting the water sit for 24 hrs and got the same result-kh-4, gh whacky ,never got orange and never got green, got variants of yellows after 14 drops, so basically the same results as before. The 54g and 30g are stable but too high ,and the 20g ph is all over the place, chaning daily from ph 7 ,to 6.4, to 6.8. (no wc's in the past 3 days just to see what the ph was doing ). Tap is 7.9 ph. Nitrates in all tanks 10 or under . Advice appreciated. thanks

Georgie

 

[Brengun]

Hmmm would be interesting to know what your tds is. If its very high then yup your gh is way high too.
The gH test can be a tricky sort of one to do. Its never a bright orange like orange juice or a bright green when it turns either.

If you really really want to see it be orange, throw a teaspoon of epsoms salts in a cup of water and test lol. Just a couple drops to play with it. You will use too many drops to get it to actually go green.

When my test starts turning it does look a bit yellowish and sometimes if I just pause for a few seconds it will eventually get to its green endpoint. Now the green isnt bright usually but a nifty way I have found to tell is to tilt the tube a bit and look at the top of the water in the tube. You will see a greener hue there than looking side on through the tube.

I have no idea why your ph would be dropping. Usually if you have kh of 4 there is no way its going to drop like that. Gee with me using all rainwater, I am usually adding buffers just to get it to 2 and I'm pretty happy lol.

I have found there is some sort of correlation between the oxygen and carbon exchange in your tank, the gH and the kH. Sometimes I have had zero kH but gH has been around 5 and the pH, although it slipped down a little, didnt actually crash so gH can hold pH a little while like a few days to a week no probs.

I wonder if adding peat balls to the canister would drop your gH or just drop the kH instead (which you don't want)?
You might need to dilute your town water with some reverse osmosis water or rainwater?

If you really feel your test kit is telling you the gH is low like 2 or less then get some Seachem Equilibrium. I have just started using it and although its more tiered to plants, the potassium, magnesium and calcium salts is well suited to plecos as well. It can push the tds up a bit but nowhere near as dramatically high as some other brands of gH additives.

 

[zeebo]

thanks brenda on the gh info. I WAS looking for orange, and green as the box said, but will try again and see what i get with yellow and lime green. thanks for your input. I need all the help I can get here ,so badly want to pick up my phantoms, and get some tetras. Georgie

 

[zeebo]

hi, ok , I know this is getting tired, but I tested the kh/gh again, waited 24 hours, kh-4 gh, I did as suggested, didnt try to get orange, got a strong enough yellow ,then a hint of green-just a hue --8 drops for the gh. So does that tell us anything ? any advice welcome . thanks

 

[zeebo]

:dk: anyone ?

 

[Lornek8]

With the numbers you're reporting, something is seriously wrong somewhere as you should not be seeing pH swings as you are. I know that we keep going around with this but is there anyway to take a sample of your tap water to a local fish shop for testing. It could be your test kits are faulty as they do get old over time.

Do you have rocks in your tank? Were they collected or bought? Do all the tanks have them?

How often do you change water? Reading back, the ph in your 20gallon went from 8 to about 7 in one month and the nitrates rose to app 30. i think the drop in ph can be attributed to the rise in nitrates. The problem with this is that in the quest to get lower pH levels in your tank, the water quality is suffering.

The more that goes on, the more that I think Ro or demin water might be in order. You may be able to get there with tap water and additives but unless you really know whats going on and what you're doing, you could create some serious plroblems for yourself.

 

[zeebo]

hi Lorne, yep, agree ,this is nuts, so i will take my water to be tested at a reputable aq store next week.

Yes, rocks in all tanks ,all store bought, all vinegar tested and boiled pre tank.

I am noticing today the 30g ph dropped to 7.6 ,yesterday all tanks got a vacuum/wc . Na in the 30g is 20, so you are correct about the water quality vs the ph. Usually my tanks Na are 10 or under. Thanks ,appreciate your response and now its to wait till next week for a store kh/gh test.

 

[Brengun]

A gH of even up to 8 or 9 is ok although 3 to 6 is more preferable but atm probably not worth altering as it shouldn't really affect the pH that much anyway. It will show a higher tds (total dissolved solids) but you aren't measuring that anyway.

Its nice to be able to let tanks go 2 weeks or even a month between waterchanges but I wouldn't advise it with plecos. I have a fairly strict once a week regime and my tanks have gotten used to it. Each tank is a separate entity and they do get used to things, or the chemical balance does.

Kh of 4 is great! I wish I could get to 4 but atm the best I can push mine up is to 3 so that has to do and I need to check pH every so often, just to make sure its sitting about what I want it to be.
KH can be depleted over time, what does it read a week after your waterchange?

What are you measuring the pH with? Is it a test kit in drops, strips or a pH pen.
Strips can be unexact and if you don't recalibrate every so often so can a pH pen.

I know 6.9 to 7.0 is a nice pH to have but my fish have been in up to 7.2 and more before I used acid buffers to pull it down so they can be a little forgiving that way.

I am wondering if perhaps your kh has a little too much in the way of phosphates which could push the pH up? Some of those are a more temporary thing and may be depleted quickly.
I know myself I have added a cheap kH buffer (mostly sodium bi-carb) only to see the pH drop again the very next day.
It was driving me crackers until I got the seachem alkaline and acid buffers which are phosphate free.
The idea with those is you add the alkaline buffer to a max reading of about pH 7.8, then add in as much acid buffer as you need to pull that pH back into line.
Its a build it up and tear it down sort of thing working on kH as well. I now am close to knowing the exact dose to use in some of my tanks and i mix the two in a cup together with some water and add it to my tank. Makes a lovely fizz in the cup.
Perhaps if your kH is already on 4 all it needs is a tiny bit of seachem acid buffer to pull the pH down and stay there. You might get a kH of 2 or 3 but its not bad.

You do have to recheck the pH in about an hour and even the next day and more to make sure you have a correct balance.

When doing a wc and you've done the gravel vac if needs be, I would try skimming the rest of the water to be changed from the top. Just hold your syphon just under the surface, enough to keep the siphon going and it should pull down any phosphates on the surface. I wc about 30% of the tanks water once a week. I found more than that was too much and 20% wasn't enough to keep those nitrates down either.

I also have seachem purigen in a bag in my canister. It polishes the water and does a great job of keeping nitrates low.

Just throwing ideas out there for you to research and maybe try as everyones tanks and water are different.

 

[zeebo]

thanks Brenda, I use the API drop test kit for gh/kh ,but it could be old, so i plan to have my aq store test it and the tds as well. Pulling hair out ,but not so bad with you guys helping me...I used to do 10%wc from top only daily before I lost them all, and vacuum once a week, however , with such a small load of fish in the 54g, i am doing less, wc 3x week and vacuum every 2 weeks, seems with no plecs , less poo to clean :cry:--really miss them.

I will get the results this coming weekend and post .. thanks for all your input.Think my city water is ****..but will know more after the readings.

 

[Lornek8]

thanks Brenda, I use the API drop test kit for gh/kh ,but it could be old, so i plan to have my aq store test it and the tds as well. Pulling hair out ,but not so bad with you guys helping me...I used to do 10%wc from top only daily before I lost them all, and vacuum once a week, however , with such a small load of fish in the 54g, i am doing less, wc 3x week and vacuum every 2 weeks, seems with no plecs , less poo to clean :cry:--really miss them.

I will get the results this coming weekend and post .. thanks for all your input.Think my city water is ****..but will know more after the readings.

What are you basing your water change routine by? Tests or appearance?