PH & water quality issues.

[AndyEllard]

I have read a few threads on PH and am a little confused.

I have just bought a digital PH tester as when I was using multi test strips they were not accurate on ph readings.

My PH is showing 8.0 in my water butt which is fed from a 3 stage HMA filter. In my tanks they are reading PH 8.4.

I have 13 tanks and the following readings are from my Zeb tank.

On the multi test kits the other readings are as follows:
Nitrate between 10 - 25
Nitrite 0
GH over 14
KH 4 - 5

I have tested the water in the water butt and all readings are the same as above apart from the PH being 8.0

I want to lower the PH as I am worried it's too high. The Zebs have spawned 3 times and all eggs have fungussed to date.

The tank is approx 60ltrs with 3 zebs in it 2 Male 1 Female. Temp 30C, filters are 1 x 600ltr/hour powerhead connected to a twin bio sponge & 1 x Eheim Bio Power 180L internal filter. tank consists of about 1-2cms of sand, with a piece bog wood and some slate & pebbles. I clean the tank every 2 days taking about 6 - 8 ltrs of water each time. I have put in some alder cones and an Indian Almond Leaf but no change in readings. I want to lower the PH and also I think the GH as I think this is too high. All my tanks are similar in readings so what ever I do would need to be done to all the others aswell.

Thanks in advance for your replys.

 

[AusPleco]

So the rocks and pebbles were tested prior to adding to the tank for ph adjustment?

I use seachem neutral regulator which adjusts the ph to 7.0

 

[Brengun]

Have you checked the callibration of the digital ph tester?

 

[macvsog23]

Hi your water is quite right for some one using HMA only The high PH is not a problem with regards to the eggs I would check for bacteria u can get kits from Plumbing stores to test for Bactria is closed systems.

Your Kh and Gh are fine just what I would expect I would,try to find out your TDS I would guess its quite high around 300?

Try to think about getting a R/O unit coupled with the HMA it would give you perfect water to play with, almond leaves or alder cones will give the water the acid levels you need they will also help with the eggs.

 

[AndyEllard]

Have you checked the callibration of the digital ph tester?

I have calibrated the oh tester using calibration fluid so it is correct.

Hi your water is quite right for some one using HMA only The high PH is not a problem with regards to the eggs I would check for bacteria u can get kits from Plumbing stores to test for Bactria is closed systems.

Your Kh and Gh are fine just what I would expect I would,try to find out your TDS I would guess its quite high around 300?

Try to think about getting a R/O unit coupled with the HMA it would give you perfect water to play with, almond leaves or alder cones will give the water the acid levels you need they will also help with the eggs.

I was thinking of getting a Tds tester, also I have had some ro water from my aquatic store to try. I have a 100 liter water but which I used 25 liters if ro and 75 hma then used this on water change on all the tanks. So the Zeb tank had about 7 liters changed of which 1/4 was roso not to shock them.

 

[Joby]

Your water sounds like mine was, naff lol! Get an RO to go with your HMA and you won't look back :thumbup:

 

[AndyEllard]

Your water sounds like mine was, naff lol! Get an RO to go with your HMA and you won't look back :thumbup:

Hi Joby, I would like a RO filter but I have a few problems that would need sorting out first. They are:
1, No drainage for the waste water.
2, No space for another water butt (I have very little space left in my garage)
3, I'm on a water meter so the cost would be quite alot. (I have spoke with Bob before about boosted systems which produce less waste water)
4, Plus the additional cost for filter booster pump etc.

I have just ordered a tds meter to see what the readings are. I can get RO from my aquatic shop for £2.50 for 25 litres but that will work out at about £15 per week for a 50/50 mix so that isn't cheap ether.

I Think if I can get the kids to move out :lol: (only 8 & 12) then I could get their bikes, Gokarts etc out of the garage and have more space to work with.

 

[AndyEllard]

Testing my pure RO water from lfs with my digital tester shows the PH to be 9.0 is this correct?
My lfs says this is because the tester gets confused due to the lack of minerals in the water.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
As others have suggested HMA filters won't alter hardness. You can ignore pH to some degree, because your water has a reasonable amount of buffering, the pH will remain fairly stable at pH8 ish. The dGH/dKH figures are quite interesting because it suggests that you some "permanent hardness", presumably from calcium or magnesium sulphate, as well as the carbonate "temporary hardness".

I was thinking of getting a Tds tester

Yes, well worth it. It is the only meter you can just dip in and getting a reasonably meaningful reading.

If you added enough "pH down" to lower the pH below pH7 you will have raised the TDS even higher than it is already, and there really isn't any advantage to this.

The high pH is not a problem with regards to the eggs I would check for bacteria

That would be my suspicion as well and you have lots of flow/biological filtration, so it probably isn't an oxygen issue. I might be tempted to try adding a few more Alder cones or Indian almond leaves and doing slightly more frequent filter cleaning (once a week?).

cheers Darrel

 

[AndyEllard]

Hi all,
As others have suggested HMA filters won't alter hardness. You can ignore pH to some degree, because your water has a reasonable amount of buffering, the pH will remain fairly stable at pH8 ish. The dGH/dKH figures are quite interesting because it suggests that you some "permanent hardness", presumably from calcium or magnesium sulphate, as well as the carbonate "temporary hardness".

Yes, well worth it. It is the only meter you can just dip in and getting a reasonably meaningful reading.

If you added enough "pH down" to lower the pH below pH7 you will have raised the TDS even higher than it is already, and there really isn't any advantage to this.

That would be my suspicion as well and you have lots of flow/biological filtration, so it probably isn't an oxygen issue. I might be tempted to try adding a few more Alder cones or Indian almond leaves and doing slightly more frequent filter cleaning (once a week?).

cheers Darrel

Thanks for the info Darrel :thumbup:,

I clean the tanks every 2 days taking about 7 litres out (55-60 litre tank) and rinse the bio sponges out in the used water each time. The Eheim Biofilter 180 is rinsed out every month in the used tank water.

I have just noticed the Female zeb is trapped in the cave with the male at the moment so not sure weither to do anything different at the moment or not. I think I will do a quick water change (7 litres) and possibly replace with 1/2 ro & 1/2 hma, or could that be the wrong thing to do at the moment?

 

[AndyEllard]

Hi your water is quite right for some one using HMA only The high PH is not a problem with regards to the eggs I would check for bacteria u can get kits from Plumbing stores to test for Bactria is closed systems.

Your Kh and Gh are fine just what I would expect I would,try to find out your TDS I would guess its quite high around 300?

Try to think about getting a R/O unit coupled with the HMA it would give you perfect water to play with, almond leaves or alder cones will give the water the acid levels you need they will also help with the eggs.

I have just received my TDS meter, not bad as I only ordered it at 4pm yesterday. My Zeb tank has a reading of 480 which is the same as my other tanks although yesterday I did a 7 litre water change with 50/50 RO & HMA and still reads the same as other tanks which did not have the 50/50 mix added.
The reading on the RO from lfs is 27.

I think I will have to get a RO filter just not sure how to fit it in or drain off the waste water yet. :dk:

On a side note what do you all store the RO water in? is it a seperate container/water butt. or into the same container/water butt as the HMA goes via valves to controll the mix?

Also on looking on the net i see pressurised containers for RO, are these just used as drinking water systems or for aquariums?

Finally would I need a complete R/O filter or could I buy the extra bits to add on?

current set up below
http://

 

[macvsog23]

Hi the questions are quite good I dont think i can give you any answeres fast as your in lemington spa i would sugest a day out to Bristol see how I do it and I can help you set it all up.

Regards Bob

 

[AndyEllard]

Hi the questions are quite good I dont think i can give you any answeres fast as your in lemington spa i would sugest a day out to Bristol see how I do it and I can help you set it all up.

Regards Bob

Cheers Bob I would love to pop down to see your set-up but it is a bit of a trip for me and I'm very busy at the moment so don't really have the time.

I was chatting to the bloke at my lfs who sets up their marine systems, and he says that using a RO filter will not lower the PH is this correct?

He also thought that cleaning the tanks every 2 days was too much as it would not give the tanks time to settle and thats why my Zeb eggs keep going bad, he suggested putting some carbon in the Eheim Bio power to help.

I use the gravel cleaner on the sand for water changes and stir up the sand each time, is this a bad idea? or should I just syphon water from mid water table?

I want to go with RO but again the bloke at the lfs thought a booster pump would not be required and that it would damage the membrane. I think I will buy a pressure guage and see what psi I have at my HMA filter to see if a booster would be required.

My head is hurting the more I think about this!:lol:

 

[Joby]

RO does lower the PH, it takes mine from 8.5 to 7

 

[AndyEllard]

RO does lower the PH, it takes mine from 8.5 to 7

Hi Jo,

How do you have your ro set-up? Do you have a seperate water butt for the RO?

I can't remember from the last time I was at yours and I think it might of been before you got your RO.

Cheers Andy.

 

[macvsog23]

I keep my R/O in a butt along with the HMA. the draw back to storing R/O and HMA is that is its not disinfected so Bactria is able to grow neat R/O should be more stable. One trick is to store the water some were cold, below 10Celsius this will slow any growth down

 

[AndyEllard]

I keep my R/O in a butt along with the HMA. the draw back to storing R/O and HMA is that is its not disinfected so Bactria is able to grow neat R/O should be more stable. One trick is to store the water some were cold, below 10Celsius this will slow any growth down

Hi Bob,

My HMA water goes into a 100L water butt in my garage and sits for 2 days (set up on a float valve and as I do my tanks every 2 days it re-fills as soon as used) My garage temp is 20C. Could this cause the problems I am having with eggs going bad? My Super reds are breeding like mad at the moment and their eggs seem fine.

Cheers Andy.

 

[Joby]

Hi Jo,

How do you have your ro set-up? Do you have a seperate water butt for the RO?

I can't remember from the last time I was at yours and I think it might of been before you got your RO.

Cheers Andy.

The RO and HMA go into the water butts together but I have isolation valves so can fill with just RO or just HMA. I store my water for up to a week sometimes and so far no problems :dk:

I found that the hard water was effecting the eggs more than anything as the fry couldn't break out of the shells. Since switching to RO/HMA mixed I have no such issues

 

[macvsog23]

Andy i would say your sytem is fine the adition of R/O will I think cure the problem

 

[AndyEllard]

The RO and HMA go into the water butts together but I have isolation valves so can fill with just RO or just HMA. I store my water for up to a week sometimes and so far no problems :dk:

I found that the hard water was effecting the eggs more than anything as the fry couldn't break out of the shells. Since switching to RO/HMA mixed I have no such issues

Thanks Jo, i think I will shortly be getting a RO filter then.

Andy i would say your sytem is fine the adition of R/O will I think cure the problem

Thanks Bob, I am a bit confused as to which RO system to get. I think as i don't use that much water 100L every 2 days then a 50GPD will be fine. I prefer the look of the better RO filters (the ones that look similar to my HMA filter pictured above, fitted to the wall on the metal bracket, as opposed to the cheaper ones that are installed on 2 plastic clips). I just don't know weither I need a 3 or 4 stage RO system. Do you think I need the DI resin or not?

Cheers Andy.