help ,L128 loosing color again

[zeebo]

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ok.so it has been 9 days since last treatment of the Artemiss for external bacteria problems. His color looked great , back to normal. I tried to take a few pics, but did not come out well as he was not happy.

This morning I took the slate off to get a good look, and his coloring was beautiful ,normal blue. He has been eating normal , various raw veggies every night.

Tonight I went to feed them as usual, and saw his color loss again. Could this be caused by stress , or have I not got the problem resolved yet ?

I assume now if not stress and he did seem pretty pissed this morning, but if not caused by stress , since I have already treated for external bacteria , does this mean internal bacteria problem?

I recently had to treat for internal parasites for the diter fish, but never noticed the 2 L128's affected. The treatment was Paracide X ,which is a powder mixed into mashed peas. All the fish ate it during the treatment .

A-0. ni-0 .na-10, ph, dropped to 6.3 so I added a very SMALL amount of chiclid gravel to filter to slowly raise it today. Temp-79.8d

wc's 10% daily , vacuum was put off today due to the lower ph, last gravel vac 9 days ago, usually weekly.

What does this look like to you guys ? Stress, or internal bacteria problem and if I need to treat with maracyn , is it safe for the biological filter ? appreciate any help/advice . thanks

 

[zeebo]

:wb:

forgot to add , last time he had transparent skin, making him look pink in the day, as last thread shows. No pink/transparent skin this time, just looks white, like a ghost at tonght feeding.

 

[Lornek8]

Tough to say what's going on. Could be any number of things. Stress. Bacterial infection. Water issues. Could be the bacterial problem is not resolved. Could have been that the dithers had an internal bacterial problem and not parasites. Artemis is an herbal treatment, not really sure what's in it but I've never had much luck with "herbals".

I use Maracyn in combination with Maracyn2. Supposed to be safe for filters, never had a problem but there is always a risk. Then again when it gets to the point where I'm using the Maracyn

 

[Lornek8]

Inadvertently sent. I was saying when I get to the point I'm using the Maracyns it's usually a question of what's the alternative. Do I treat and risk a cycle or do I cross my fingers and hope something else will work. My philosophy is if I'm going to treat, I'm treating with the best I know.

 

[zeebo]

hi Lorne, thanks for responding. Yeah, the dither fish did have IP's, clear poo segments. but they also had popey,and cloudy eye. All this began when I added (not q-tanked) 7 rummy nose tetra. 2 weeks after adding them, all these problems popped up week after week, the harqequins would get sick or the dwarf rainbows, but never saw anything wrong with the rummys. Prior to adding them , no problems, so I know everything came from them, and later found out they had been kept in a tank that had previously held wild cardinals and wild plecs--although they were not in the tank when I purchased the rummys, just rummys.

So could this be from internal parasites ? I noticed some suspicious poo on a dither today, but not sure if it is just very light poo from eating zucchini-the dithers do eat it, or if it was actually clear. Keeping an eye on that.

I see what you mean about the filter media , so it is a chance taken to save the fish. thanks for your response, will wait a day and see what he looks like tomorrow, then will have to treat .

 

[Lornek8]

It is probably internal bacteria that you are attributing to internal parasites. Internal bacteria can cause all types of problems and may not manifest itself the same way all the time. The internal diseases you suspect from the rummies could be from a number of sources, maybe not just the wild caught fish. Many of the problems we see in our aquarium fish are due to poor breeding practices of the ornamental trade. I haven't seen many dwarf gouramis in the aquarium trade recently that weren't visibly sick or came down with some illness soon after making it to the store. Neon tetras are also notoroious for this. Its due to fish farms simply producing fish by the milliions for the pet trade. They breed the commodity fish by the millions for the pet trade and those that make it, make it, those that don't, don't. You'd be shocked if you ever saw how they treat fish at the wholesale level.

 

[zeebo]

Hi Lorne, wow , very insightful info . Makes total sense too, and yeah , I am sure I would be appalled to see what goes on at the fish farms .

ok ,update on the ghostly L128 : This morning his coloring was back to blue ,not ghostly . Bearing in mind , I did not remove the slate today, just peeked in where he hangs, looked pretty good, but did not get a look at him above the slate. Tonight , peeked in and he did not look ghostly, still looked like he is blue. But this happened prior to Artemiss treatment last time, as I mentioned on the first thread. Seemed like stress at THAT time because we were pawing all around the tank for hours, thinking the tank was leaking,--the very next night he went white,would regain some of his color each morning, then at night , back to white, 3 nights in a row. That is when I began the Artemiss treatment.

Now 9 days pass, all cool, looking good, then yesterday removed wood and slate to do a vacuum and he seemed stressed,pissed,so I put the slate back , not wanting to chance it. Last night I see he is a ghostly white plec again. :wb:

I need to see if his skin is transparent/pink again . That I assume would mean internal bacteria problem ??

Tomorrow I really need to do a gravel vac , and will need to remove the slate, so I will get a good look at him.

Now for the 64,00 dollar question--------

If no pink/translucent skin, and if his color is back, do I need to treat , or can I assume this is stress related ? Or does this seem like an internal bacterial problem and the white coloring is not stress related, but just a coincidence or part of the illness ?

This is making me friggin nuts !

thanks and hope u can thow me a bone on what you think is happeing after reading the details.

 

[Irene0100]

hi , can you get ESHA2000 where you are?

 

[Lornek8]

hi , can you get ESHA2000 where you are?

Not readily. Meaning one could probably get some shipped from outside the US. But ESHA is not a brand that is off the shelf in the US.

 

[zeebo]

hi guys,
UPDATE: This morning I removed the wood and slate to get a good look at him and to vacuum. He looks fine, beautiful blue color, no discolorations on his skin at all.

Could this cause by stress then ?

 

[Lornek8]

As the coloration seems to come and go rather quickly and frequently I don't think its a bacterial problem. As with any problem, you need to take a good look at whats going on and try to determine what the cause of the problem is. Dont' overlook anything and don't immediately jump to conclusions without eliminating all possibilities. For instance:
What time of day do you notice the problem? Same time each day or different time?
Is it before or after water changes?
Are you doing anything different?
Have you added anything?
How long does it take to lose the color? How long to get it back?
These are some sample questions you should be asking yourself to elimiate all possibilities. Could it be related to the problems you had with the dithers? Yes.
Could it be unrelated and a new problem? Yes
Could it be related to the water parameter issues you had last year? Again, yes.
So it could be one of many things and it could be something you think has no bearing. For instance, its winter, could the tank be colder, the replacement water be colder, with the storm that just blew through could tap water quality have been affected. I once had a weird situation going on with some tanks where i'd get clouding after water changes and MTS climbing the glass (sure sign of something off). Well, nothing changed in my routine and it went on for awhile until I determined that for whatever reason when I didn't measure exactly how much water conditioner I put in, with a particular brand, if I put too much, then I had problems. Cut back on the water conditioner and the problems went away.
So, try to sit down and take a good hard look at whats going on, both in your tanks and in your house. Try and watch the water parameters and see if you can find any trends or actions that are triggering the color changes.

 

[zeebo]

wow, Lorne, thanks for such detailed info to look for. Appreciate big-time.

I do have a stong idea it is stress related. However , you have mentioned many things to consider .

The water temp is between 79.8 - 80.1 - has been for over 6 months. I use a heater alarm digital temp reading, gives the reading of the room and the tank. I also have 2 thermometers in the tank. All 3 read same.

Prime when doing wc's , I don't measure, just toss a small splash in before turning the python spigit on . I try not to put too much Prime in as I am only doing a 10% wc daily. I would not know how much to measure :dk: so that could be something to look into. New tap water temp matches tank water.

The storm is something to look into as well.Certainly could have caused probs with our water. I need to test my tap water,thanks. Tank water is still a-0, ni-0, na-10 .

I can't help but feel this is stress cuz the first time it happened was when 2 of us spent hrs messing around trying to find a suspected leak--putting dry paper towels in the bottom rim to soak up the water ,unitl finally they came up dry, but this procdeure amounts to what FISH would consider a 3 hr glass cleaning session, and they all hate when I normally clean the glass . The very next night he turned ghostly white, then back to blue in am , and so on. *That time he also had transluent/pink skin in the day as well, so I medicated for external bacteria prob.

This recent time when he went ghostly white , I had the slate off and was taking pictures of him. He was not ammused, and kept hiding behind things, so I gave up . That night he went white . No translucent/pinkish coloring in the day this time. Looked normal ,good blue color.

Tonight he looked fine at feeding, no ghost. But I did this am vac very quickly (and I did not remove everything as I normally do-so that is a change for me , he still had places to hide) and no color change tonight. That could be important.

Since the rummys did bring in some issuses, I will keep an eye on everyone , and hold off on treating unless i notice a problem. I treated for so many things from them , but could still be other nasties lurking .

Lots of things to go over that you mentioned, so thanks for the advice and I will watch things I do as well as the water.

gotta say, scary stuff when ya see your blue plec swimming around ,looking like a ghost at night in the tank(the pic I posted he looks light green but that is due to the flash, he really looked white) --ya just pray he will make it throgh till morning

I am praying he continues to hold his color and after I check the issues you mentioned, I will need to be careful not to stress him . If I need to work on the tank so closely again, I will put black plastic up to cover the fish from seeing any action going on . thanks again,

 

[Lornek8]

Fish are keen on vibrations as well which gets easily transmitted through the water, thus any abnormal amounts of movement in the room may be stressful well.

On thing puzzling is the amount of time between the "stress trigger" and the discoloration. Three hours of tank work then the next night it turns color? Usually it's more immediate.

You always take everything out of the tank when doing water changes? Another quite stressful event. Typically I change a percentage of water a week and vac what I can get to without moving stuff around. I only pull the tank apart maybe every few months or so, kind of depends what the tank looks like. Extensive cleanings although we'll intended can sometimes be as bad or worse then no changes.

 

[zeebo]

Hi Lorne, yes ,the color changed at night , after what I would say was a stressful incident. Looking for a tank leak ,the procedure took about 3 hrs, but the aquarium guy was here for much longer, and at one point he noticed the larger blue came out and was (forgot exactly what he called it) but was kinda puffing his lower lip area at him, and he interperted it as ''get the hell outta here" behavior. So that procedure of checking the tank lasted a good 3 hrs,but we were working with the filters and other stuff too,so we were at that tank longer actually. He was here for quite a while. I believe the L128 went white that night, not the next because I called him, to question this.

The recent time,I removed the slate and wood, preparing to do a vac, took some pics, saw he was angry, so quit and did not do the vacuum. Still he did not turn white immediately, it happened that night, then in am color was back to normal blue.

OK, I have heard before that most people don't take everything out at same time to vacuum, but reason why i was doing that was to avoid any toxic gas buildup which i have read can be fatal if left untouched too long . That is the reason I keep my gravel at about 1'' or a bit lower ,also.

So this is something I need to change in my routine. I won't remove eveything, just vacuum what I can get to weekly , and monthly remove a few things . This way I won't be breaking down his home on a weekly basis. I have 3 granite caves and always removed them and vacuumed the gravel underneath to prevent toxins build-up, but stressful to the L's it seems. Strange , I have always done this routine, and never saw any stress behaviors until that " tank check situation". Still, I can see you have a better and much less stressful way to vacuum, so I will change that .

This a.m. I can see him under the slate and his coloring looks fine. Last night he did not turn white.

thank you for the cleaning routine idea and praying the color loss was a stress thing that now I can help prevent... still have to watch and check the other things you previously suggested too.....crossing fingers.

 

[Irene0100]

I dont have many ideas I'm afraid. i used to keep both blue and green phantoms (lost them one summer night due to too many plants taking up oxygen -but thats another story) anyway I never had them go pale with stress.
I like ESHA 2000 only cos it seems to cure so many weird illnesses and good for general health without ruining the filter bacteria.
water is often cause of problems, dont suppose you could try RO mix or rain water ?
could he be getting stress from agro with tank mates of some kind. is he in a big enough tank or is he lonely?
other ideas would be giving wider diet, lower ph and lower hardness.

 

[zeebo]

Hi Irene, thanks for responding.

His coloring still looks good, nice blue, and I plan to keep the stress level low on my end from now on-tank cleaning and such.

He is in a 54g trigon/corner tank.
tankmates are :
anohter L128, much smaller-they get along fine, so far
10 harlequin raspboras
2 diamond tetra
7rummy nose tetra
4 female dwarf rainbows
1 farlowella

ph is 6.8 10% daily wc's/weekly vacuums
2 AquaClear 70's and a hydra-sponge filter , plus 2 air stones.

food is raw veggies each night, zucchini, yellow squash, red bell pepper, green bell pepper , spinach leaf, peas etc. He has not missed a meal.

plan to test my tap water today.

I don't plan to medicate atm ,because he looks good , and I really am leaning toward "stress", but interesting that you had L128's and L200's and this never happened. I had 2 L128's which I lost-lost everone to inhaler sprayed in the tank, and they never turned white, however, they were small, as is the 2nd one in my tank. :dk: still ,I am watching him and any sign of illness ,I will have to medicate. As Lorne said, we can't get esha2000 here in the States, bit there are other meds I can safely use.

He has not turned white since the last time I tried to take photos of him while preparing to clean the tank. That night he turned white , but not again since. Crossing fingers.....

thanks again for your concern and suggestions.

 

[zeebo]

just an update, and knock on wood . The larger L128 had kept his blue color very nicely since I began this thread. Still eating well , a mix of raw veggies, different each night and he eats it all.

So far all the fish look fine , I did have to treat for IP's for 5 days(dither fish showed signs again) , a second time, but done with that too.

My honest conclusion at this point is that the color change ,so drastic , is either a mood thing or a stress thing. Following Lornek's advice concerning vacuuming smaller amounts of gravel at a time and not removing eveything seems to have helped the situation. thanks Lorne.

thanks eveyone else too, I appreciate the concern. Hopefully worries are over now. crossing fingers.