My plecos died and I don't know why, help !

[Christine]

An update

And Darrel, although your post initially puzzled me, because it was against everything I had read so far, I believe it's the way to go.

Here the story. Over the last 2 weeks (almost) I adopted the new regime - water change no more than 20% twice a week, feeding little, Pimafix and Melafix, Prime to neutralize ammonia and potentially nitrites in the eventuality they actually could occur one day. Added seeded filter provided by kind souls.

Pimafix and Melafix didn't change anything about the yellow build-up, so I've stopped that. Tested water daily with API kit (not paranoid, yes I know Darrel that the kits are only as good as they get, but did it for the simple reason to monitor ammonia and eventually move the remaining fish to the emergency tank should it rise too much and cause harm to them.

2 weeks into it, and ammonia moved up to 1.0. No nitrites, no nitrates. I know it can take time but something should have started to happen, the tank is now almost 2 months old and it just looks like the nitrogen cycle has stopped or stalled.

So I went to the LFS again and asked to talk to Eric. He is the boss and a bloody character terrorising his employees, but he has knowledge in water chemistry having worked in the biggest lab of the country for years, and he is a passionate about fish for over 35 years. In his shop, half of the tanks with fish are actually not for sale !!! They are 2 metres long each and he has recovered fish from people who couldn't care for them (has got quite a few really big plecos, one of them known age 14 years and the most amazing is a monstruous gourami 18 years old).

So, he is a business person but also a passionate about fish tanks. He gave the **** to his employee (poor thing started to loose her nerves) but he wanted her to THINK about what can be done for me. And here is his "solution": NO filter media or ceramic noodles from another established tank, NO testing for now, and finding a tank in his display tanks with parameters as similar as possible to my fish's requirements, one of the dirtiest, and syphon water from the gravel then add it to my tank. He told me it was going to be pitch black in my tank, and yes, I do confirm, I cannot even see my fish now (a bit scary). Explained that it will be loaded with millions of BB (even gave the figure) ... as well as crap. The filter will take it through the media, it will populate it in no time. Told me to stop buying products, it's crap, he doesn't want me to get that, have my fish die and end of the story. Wants me to have a cycled tank, get more fish, and one day a bigger tank and enjoy the passion That's where the businessman spirit takes over

He is either completely mad or then completely wise. Future will tell and I will keep you updated.

 

[Brengun]

Yep agree, quickest way to cycle a tank is to squeeze all the gunk from another tank into the new one. Fish don't really care, they kinda like the spooky gloom. lol.
In a few months, worm all your fish. Just in case fish worms were also transferred. Kusuri discus plus is a good one.

 

[Christine]

To be honest, I was a bit scared when I saw that the water was pitch black and I couldn't even see the white gourami, but the owner from the LFS told me this would happen. It settled after an hour and everybody was there, apparently unphased by it all. Water is clear again today, but ammonia is still between 1 and 2 and now there are nitrates for the first time ever (not much though, just around 5), and that is AFTER the 30% water change the guy recommended me to do today. Normal? Should I get more of the stuff? For info, my tank is 130 L, he gave me 20 L. I know it takes time, and I do not want to sound impatient here, not at all, I'm just concerned about the effect the ammonia will have on the remaining fish. The added water today was treated with Prime, so it should help.

 

[Brengun]

I would treat the entire volume of the tank with prime, daily while there are ammonia or nitrite readings. Prime diminishes within 24hours.

 

[Christine]

Sorry for the late reply, has been a week of hell.

After I added the "dirty" water, the following day ammonia spiked at 8 ppm !!! Scared the s*** out of me, so changed 50% of water. Prime. Following day it was down to 4 ppm, so another 50% change, and since then prime daily. It went down to 2 for a couple of days, then 1, now sitting at 0.5 for the last 3 days. Treating daily with Prime still. And Melafix. Just after the spike at 8 ppm, the phantom tetras had holes in their fins and the corys had half of the fin missing. The day before they were intact (I check each of them daily). They survived (bless them, poor little things) and seem to recover. The tetras fins have no more holes but they lost the colour. The corys fins are slowly growing back, but not fully there.

Otherwise, things seem to be changing slowly. I have never got Nitrites, but have some nitrates (5) and without water change the ammonia went down from 2 to 0.5. Hope that's good ?!??!

Now, I noticed that one of the serpae had a tiny piece of tail missing, and so did the gourami and one of the neons. But NOT the guppy, which is awkward, you'd think that, if some nipping goes on, he would be the first target. So I sat in front of the tank for an hour and observed the whole thing, and I think it is actually the guppy that nips the other fish!!!!! He was harassing the female serpae like mad !!!!! Did some research and found that in the wild they are known for that, they are actually responsible for decimating a whole species in Mexico, and all because of sexual frustration. So I took him out from the tank and into a bucket with water from the tank, 30 minutes, and that seemed to have calmed his ardours. Tonight it was more peaceful, he was just hanging around the others without chasing them and trying to "line up" into position. He is the last survivor of a group of 3 and resisting well for over a month now, but I'm not keen at all to get him 3-4 females, so will see if I can find someone to take him.

That's for the latest "events" down here

 

[Bigjohnnofish]

dont mean to be negative but fish exposed to ammonia will suffer whether it be short term or long term... it burns their gills and in some cases it can heal up but in many cases it does not and the fish dies a slow death as it cannot eat and struggles to breathe... fish may die straight away or even up to 4 or more weeks later... making you think something else has happened when it may just be from a previous ammonia/nitrite spike.... nitrite is many more times deadly than ammonia to fish...

as bren said does with prime each day the recommended amount and do minimal water changes untill you get a good nitrate reading of 40ppm.... then start your water changing routine...

one day in the future maybe lfs's will pre seed their filters with bacteria so people dont have to go through the pain of learning the hard way...

 

[pepper28]

Hi been reading your log looks like you need to add some good beneficial bacteria or pro-biotic bacteria to start the build up of bacteria in tour tank ,gravel ornaments etc and the plants with a good lighting system, CO2 system could control the nitrate It takes a while for set up of the tank cycle I always tell my friends to start with gold fish first,cheers Doug

 

[Christine]

Hello everyone, and thanks for the last two posts.

Now, for the update. Since my last one 2 weeks ago, ammonia kept going up from 0.5 to 2 (6 days ago). Was getting desperate, just kept treating daily with Prime. I had 2 extremely busy weeks at work, so have only done 2 water changes (20%) over the last 9 days, kept testing daily though. For info, PH was under 7 all the time, which, if I get it right, has an influence on ammonia (under PH 7 it's ammonium, less toxic form, correct?). No nitrites at all, a tiny tinge of orange for nitrates (less than 5).

And today, for the first time in 3 months, there is a change !!!!!!!! A good one? Not so sure, but maybe the cycling is on it's way .... for you all to tell me please. Ammonia under 0.25 (not quite zero), but getting nitrites for the first time EVER. Yesterday 0, tonight between 2 and 5 (not the purple for 5, but definitively over 2). And nitrates 10. Tested a second time, just to double check and same results.

Now, I understand that nitrites are even more dangerous than ammonia for my fish. Somehow I'm happy that things are changing, but at the same time scared of its consequences. Will do some research about the best way to deal with nitrites. It seems that Prime is a good solution, on the bottle they recommend 4 times the usual dose in case of high nitrites. Do I go ahead?

Bigjohnnofish, I believe that what you say about ammonia and it's effect, even delayed, was the cause of all the sudden deaths in the tank. I didn't test initially (according to the LFS guy, it was not needed as long as I changed water twice a week). It's only when the first fish died that I got the API kit, but by then, there could/would have been a spike that triggered the death of quite a few more fish (as for the plecos, I believe there was an additional reason - see below).

Question: since I started this post a few weeks ago when suddenly I started to lose one fish after the other ... I haven't had any more deaths. One of the phantom tetras and the two panda corys suffered serious damage on their fins the day after the spike of ammonia at 8. I treated for 12 days with Melafix and their fins have fully regrown (but for the corys the black didn't come back). ALL the fish do their usual stuff ... I observe them for at least 15 minutes in a row every day, and none of them shows signs of distress (as in quick gill movement, erratic swimming, surface swimming, the gills look as they've always looked, no physical damage other than what I mentioned about the tetra and 2 corys the day after the spike). Can these "survivors" somehow have adapted ????

Last news: last week we got a little pleco (joselimaianus, they grow "only" up to 30 cm from what I've found). He is just 1 inch long and in the smaller thank for now (which is cycled). He won't stay there forever, but I'm getting him used to eat veggies. At the LFS I have never seen veggies in their tank and my 2 first plecos never touched them; they only ate flakes and wafers, they both died bloated (the first one VERY bloated). Number 3 (still to be named) didn't touch anything for a week, then started munching on zucchini, peas, and his favourite: spinach and silverbeet. He is pooping and his tummy is flat. The more it goes, the more I believe that the first two died of ammonia AND diet too rich in protein. So this little fella is going to be on his veggies for a little while

That's it for now. Any advice about the best way to deal with nitrites is welcome. Thanks in advance.
Christine

 

[Christine]

2 days later: ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5

 

[pepper28]

Kusuri Discus plus

Yep agree, quickest way to cycle a tank is to squeeze all the gunk from another tank into the new one. Fish don't really care, they kinda like the spooky gloom. lol.
In a few months, worm all your fish. Just in case fish worms were also transferred. Kusuri discus plus is a good one.

Hi,
Kusuri discus plus? I had just lost about 30 discuses over the last 2 years
a breeding pair red coat last month they used to lie on the floor for 2 or 3 days then kaput tried melafix,pimafix,sterazin,metronazole,multicure,triple sulphur then last week the same with a checkerboard so I tried fluke & tapeworm tablet containing prazi the next day she would swim around rest and the foll day completly cured but I had to get the plecos out as I dont think they like any medication
Now kusuri can that be used for plecos as well, do plecos catch the intestinal parasite if they foraged for food from the floor?,i don know if the tetracycline
would make the fish infertile as in the past I found that fungus cure would do just that,
cheers Doug

 

[Christine]

Hi Doug,

I'm certainly not a specialist in discuses, nor in medication, but there is a few things that I know which might make some sense. Other members will probably be more helpful though ... so please, forgive any mistake, I just try to help with the knowledge I have.

Plecos and medication: from what I discovered, they will tolerate certain medications just like many other fish will, but medication being an active ingredient, you cannot just throw anything in the tank, it needs to be appropriate to the disease you try to cure (see below). One thing I found that was not appropriate to plecos, was salt, apparently due to their type of skin. Myth or reality?

Appropriate medicines: BEFORE treating anything, the hardest part of the job is to work out what the disease actually is. It looks like many people, in desperation, will try anything and are surprised for the lack of results. Some medication are solely dedicated to bacteria, whilst other will treat fungi, and others yet are "broad spectrum". Those for bacteria for example: when I had that problem with staph in my tank, I discovered that there is what is called "gram positive" and "gram negative" types of bacteria. The good bacteria in your tank, for example, are gram positive and so is staph. A treatment for gram positive bacteria will get rid of both, but NOT gram negative types. And the other way round is true too. As a conclusion, choosing a bacterial treatment may end up with no result if it is not targeting the right bacteria. I guess it will be the same for other types of medicines. That's quite often when people will resort to "Broad spectrum" types, and for sure, they will get rid of a lot, but at what cost ?
Melafix. Antibacterial, mild, natural. It didn't get rid of the staph in my tank, but it helped my fish to recover from the extreme physical damage of an ammonia spike. Why? Because it contains tea tree oil (unfortunately not the best variety), and tea tree oil is a mild topical antibacterial, so it helped in the scarring process of my fish. My two first plecos died completely bloated, the second one with anal bleeding, so something went terribly wrong in his guts, more than likely infection (which is bacterial). I treated both with Melafix, to not avail. This was internal, probably bacterial, but it could have been another parasite, I will never know.

Do plecos catch parasites from foraging? More than likely. The question is: is the parasite lethal to plecos. The answer is "perhaps". Some might, some might not. I haven't found any decent doc about which parasites are lethal to plecos, probably because there are millions of parasites. Look at the abdomen of your pleco. Does it show any sign like being bigger than usual, is there anything protruding from their anus, change in colour perhaps? These could all be signs of digestive problem, the cause of which could be the food eaten, or parasites. I would isolate the fish in a separate tank and feed him lots of shelled cooked peas (that is if he eats them). They are known to "cleanse" their digestive system. And only that. Too many proteins seem to constipate plecos, and most fish food, which, uneaten by other fish will ultimately end up on the tank floor and susceptible to be eaten by the pleco, contain a high level of proteins. Be even careful with wafers. The label often says "vegetable wafers", and if you look at the ingredients, more than 50% is fish meal, therefore protein. Putting your pleco in a separate tank with only fresh vegetables, ideally some peas, can only help it to recover from any potential constipation or parasitic infestation by cleansing and strengthening his system again. And you will probably never know if he had a parasite from other fish or not, but he might survive.

Last point: overmedicating. Again, just my personal opinion, based on the experience over the last 3 months. When our fish die, we feel helpless, and we do what most humans got used to: take/give medicine because we think it will cure everything, but in the story we tempt to actually overlook the most primordial thing we should do. As an example, for a human, if you end up with a disease caused by overeating junk food ... what do you do ? Do you take medicine that will attempt to cure the effects of the junk food and keep eating it? OR do you stop junk food all together and may not need medicine at all ......... same logic applies to the tank ... If the tanks water conditions are ugly, put simply, the fish's immune system is fragilized and they are more likely to die from secondary infections, which we try to treat with more medicine. Is it required though? Or should we just try to optimize the water conditions and by the same token these secondary problems will go away too? Our vet made me think at that question. When I asked about what other medicine I could try, she said "maybe you don't need anymore medicine. Fish tanks are little closed and fragile environments, sometimes simple things like a slight change in temperature, sunlight, etc will influence the ecosystem positively. Stop treating with medicine, try to keep the water in best quality possible by doing regular small water changes ... and let nature and time do it's thing". I stopped ALL medicine, only used Prime to minimize ammonia/nitrite poisoning .... and a few weeks later we finally got there. The fish ALL survived, with no doubts they got "bumps and scratches" as well but they were the strongest and Darwin's principles were applied.

This ends up being less of a direct answer to your question Doug, than a bit of a personal reflection. Sorry about that Someone else will give you more direct answer, with no doubt !

 

[pepper28]

Kusuri Discus wormer

Hi Doug,

I'm certainly not a specialist in discuses, nor in medication, but there is a few things that I know which might make some sense. Other members will probably be more helpful though ... so please, forgive any mistake, I just try to help with the knowledge I have.

Plecos and medication: from what I discovered, they will tolerate certain medications just like many other fish will, but medication being an active ingredient, you cannot just throw anything in the tank, it needs to be appropriate to the disease you try to cure (see below). One thing I found that was not appropriate to plecos, was salt, apparently due to their type of skin. Myth or reality?

Appropriate medicines: BEFORE treating anything, the hardest part of the job is to work out what the disease actually is. It looks like many people, in desperation, will try anything and are surprised for the lack of results. Some medication are solely dedicated to bacteria, whilst other will treat fungi, and others yet are "broad spectrum". Those for bacteria for example: when I had that problem with staph in my tank, I discovered that there is what is called "gram positive" and "gram negative" types of bacteria. The good bacteria in your tank, for example, are gram positive and so is staph. A treatment for gram positive bacteria will get rid of both, but NOT gram negative types. And the other way round is true too. As a conclusion, choosing a bacterial treatment may end up with no result if it is not targeting the right bacteria. I guess it will be the same for other types of medicines. That's quite often when people will resort to "Broad spectrum" types, and for sure, they will get rid of a lot, but at what cost ?
Melafix. Antibacterial, mild, natural. It didn't get rid of the staph in my tank, but it helped my fish to recover from the extreme physical damage of an ammonia spike. Why? Because it contains tea tree oil (unfortunately not the best variety), and tea tree oil is a mild topical antibacterial, so it helped in the scarring process of my fish. My two first plecos died completely bloated, the second one with anal bleeding, so something went terribly wrong in his guts, more than likely infection (which is bacterial). I treated both with Melafix, to not avail. This was internal, probably bacterial, but it could have been another parasite, I will never know.

Do plecos catch parasites from foraging? More than likely. The question is: is the parasite lethal to plecos. The answer is "perhaps". Some might, some might not. I haven't found any decent doc about which parasites are lethal to plecos, probably because there are millions of parasites. Look at the abdomen of your pleco. Does it show any sign like being bigger than usual, is there anything protruding from their anus, change in colour perhaps? These could all be signs of digestive problem, the cause of which could be the food eaten, or parasites. I would isolate the fish in a separate tank and feed him lots of shelled cooked peas (that is if he eats them). They are known to "cleanse" their digestive system. And only that. Too many proteins seem to constipate plecos, and most fish food, which, uneaten by other fish will ultimately end up on the tank floor and susceptible to be eaten by the pleco, contain a high level of proteins. Be even careful with wafers. The label often says "vegetable wafers", and if you look at the ingredients, more than 50% is fish meal, therefore protein. Putting your pleco in a separate tank with only fresh vegetables, ideally some peas, can only help it to recover from any potential constipation or parasitic infestation by cleansing and strengthening his system again. And you will probably never know if he had a parasite from other fish or not, but he might survive.

Last point: overmedicating. Again, just my personal opinion, based on the experience over the last 3 months. When our fish die, we feel helpless, and we do what most humans got used to: take/give medicine because we think it will cure everything, but in the story we tempt to actually overlook the most primordial thing we should do. As an example, for a human, if you end up with a disease caused by overeating junk food ... what do you do ? Do you take medicine that will attempt to cure the effects of the junk food and keep eating it? OR do you stop junk food all together and may not need medicine at all ......... same logic applies to the tank ... If the tanks water conditions are ugly, put simply, the fish's immune system is fragilized and they are more likely to die from secondary infections, which we try to treat with more medicine. Is it required though? Or should we just try to optimize the water conditions and by the same token these secondary problems will go away too? Our vet made me think at that question. When I asked about what other medicine I could try, she said "maybe you don't need anymore medicine. Fish tanks are little closed and fragile environments, sometimes simple things like a slight change in temperature, sunlight, etc will influence the ecosystem positively. Stop treating with medicine, try to keep the water in best quality possible by doing regular small water changes ... and let nature and time do it's thing". I stopped ALL medicine, only used Prime to minimize ammonia/nitrite poisoning .... and a few weeks later we finally got there. The fish ALL survived, with no doubts they got "bumps and scratches" as well but they were the strongest and Darwin's principles were applied.

This ends up being less of a direct answer to your question Doug, than a bit of a personal reflection. Sorry about that Someone else will give you more direct answer, with no doubt !

:hi: Christine,
Sorry about that ,that question about Kusuri was for brengun,but thanks anyway must of clicked on the wrong quote.
I am a bit curious as to what type of L nos are available in N.Z,I do know that they are quite strict as to fish coming in I found out.
I have my niece living in Auckland and tried to introduce her to fish and gave her a tank with goldfish to start with,thought about bristlenose saw a few in the petshop,but then it would be an expensive hobby for her to get hooked onto.I do keep a few goldfish which I use to cycle any new tank with Aquasonic bioculture and bio super concentrate by biotec restoration p/L so I thought that would be a good idea.
cheers Doug.

 

[Brengun]

Its rare I worm my plecos at all but if I have accumulated new ones over six months to a year I do tend to worm everyone just to be safe especially if someone has died in a one off can't be explained why scenario.

 

[Christine]

:hi: Christine,
Sorry about that ,that question about Kusuri was for brengun,but thanks anyway must of clicked on the wrong quote.
I am a bit curious as to what type of L nos are available in N.Z,I do know that they are quite strict as to fish coming in I found out.
I have my niece living in Auckland and tried to introduce her to fish and gave her a tank with goldfish to start with,thought about bristlenose saw a few in the petshop,but then it would be an expensive hobby for her to get hooked onto.I do keep a few goldfish which I use to cycle any new tank with Aquasonic bioculture and bio super concentrate by biotec restoration p/L so I thought that would be a good idea.
cheers Doug.

No worries Doug

As for the question about which plecos are available in NZ, here too, some other NZ members might be better to answer since I live in a smaller city and there is only 2 pet shops - although, by having said that, one of them is held by a passionate fish lover, who has kept half of the fish tanks (the huge ones) in his shop for display only. The other half contains fish for sale, mostly juveniles, but some have also adult plecos who have grown too large and owners brought them back, so this guy tries to rehouse them all.

The plecos I have seen so far:
Common pleco
Joselimaianus
Gibbiceps
Golden Nugget
Tiger
Bristlenoses
Albinos

He told me that, if I was after a specific one, to find it's L number and he would see if he can get it. From this I assume that most plecos could be available in NZ, as long as there is a breeder somewhere on the planet willing to go through the NZ import requirements.

Christine