phosphates can buffer water?

[Doodles]

In the text it is said that a build up of phosphates will end up destroying the buffering capacity of the water, but my understanding has always been that phosphates are themselves buffering ions, so I believe it would be more accurate to state that an accumulation of phosphates will tend to buffer the water at a lower level. The difference is that a phosphate-buffered water in the wrong pH should be almost as hard to correct as a carbonate buffered one, in contrast to the idea that a water that lost its buffering capacity is easy to correct.

My most painful personal aquarium disaster occurred several years ago when I decided to use a phosphate remover in a 4 year old planted tank with some of the favorite fish I've every kept, just to help me with algae control. It turned out that over the years the water had been buffered at about 6.5 by the phosphate and when the resin removed it the pH swung to 8.5 or more overnight, killing nearly all of my 4 year old fish :-(

Finally, the Tap Water Purifier method certainly works very well as described, but I lived for 2 years in a city where the tap water was extremely hard and alkaline, and as a consequence the resin lasted very little and it became very troublesome and costly to replace it all the time. The solution I found at the time was to simply go to the supermarket next door and stock up gallons of distilled water for the water changes. At a cost of US$0.29 per gallon it was a much cheaper solution (at least for my small tank), and all I had to do was mix in a bit of tap water before using it in the tank.

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_adjusting_pH.php


Was doing some reading and found these comments about phosphate. Is it true that phosphate could do as said in the quote?

 

[macvsog23]

Phos will stabilize water that is why its added to our drinking water

The main influence on PH in the aquarium is our old friend Kh.
Any removal quickly of any component of water will spell disaster in a tank
The main problem is water is less stable in small amounts naturally a change in a 1000,00 gallons tank of say 3% will make a small difference as its spreads across the tank.

go to the other end of the scale 3% of a 1 gallon tank is masive.

basicly every thing alters PH the use of the word buffered is a bit off the mark it implies it will change some thing in the water ie Ph and set it as being stable.

regards bob

 

[Doodles]

ok Thanks Bob.

I knew phosphates was added to tap water, wasn't sure exactly why though.

We have really hard water, high ph and kh and the phosphates are pretty high in our tap water, why would they need to add so much?

 

[DJ-don]

as you may now, phosphate is a nutrient for algae.
and i have heard phosphate can kill fish too
http://s1.zetaboards.com/PrestigeAquatics/topic/2696890/1/
above is an article from a australian forum but you might have to be a member to see it not sure

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
The water companies add ortho-phosphate ("for control of plumbosolvency") to water and these combine with any lead (Pb) in the tap water and precipitates the lead out of solution as insoluble, pH stable, lead phosphate compounds. If you want the technical term it is - PIMS -"phosphate induced metal stabilisation".

There are a lot of phosphate buffers - "potassium dihydrogen phosphate" KH2PO4 (buffers just below pH7) for example, so I suppose it is possible, but very much a chance occurence.

The volume question Mac mentions is also very relevant, this is why Marine and Lake Tang. cichlids are unable to cope with much change in temperature, pH, salinity etc. they've evolved in huge stable water bodies with very highly buffered water, it's also why big tanks are easier to maintain water quality in than small tanks.

pH Buffers (warning contains a bit of chemistry)
All a pH buffer is a compound that is soluble at one pH range, but insoluble in others. They consist of a mixture of a weak acid and its base. It has the property that the pH of the solution changes very little when a small amount of strong acid or base is added to it, so it "buffers" changes in pH.

This is also how the buffering of KH by calcium carbonate CaCO3 works (in this case the acid and conjugated base base are carbonic acid and bicarbonate).

CaCO3, or calcium carbonate is insoluble and is the main constituent of limestone. H2CO3, or carbonic acid is what you get when you dissolve CO2 in water by the following formula:

CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3 but when you add some KH Ca(HCO3)2 <--> CaCO3 + H2CO3

Ca(HCO3)2, actually Ca++ and HCO3- ions, is soluble and is what you measure as the carbonate hardness (KH) of your aquarium water.

Both of these reactions are at equilibrium and reversible. If you add components to one side of the reaction, you drive it in the other direction. if you add CO2 to an aquarium that has calcium carbonate decorations (e.g. dolomite or coral), you will dissolve some of the CaCO3 to make Ca(HCO3)2 and thereby increase the hardness of water. On the other hand, if you have fairly hard water and the CO2 content is decreased, CaCO3 will precipitate out (limescale) and H2CO3 is released into the water until an equilibrium is eached. In this way, Ca(HCO3)2 acts as a buffer in aquarium water. This is also why hard water resists pH changes much better than soft water, it has a much larger reserve of buffer which we call its carbonate hardness KH.

cheers Darrel

 

[macvsog23]

Hi all,
The water companies add ortho-phosphate ("for control of plumbosolvency") to water and these combine with any lead (Pb) in the tap water and precipitates the lead out of solution as insoluble, pH stable, lead phosphate compounds. If you want the technical term it is - PIMS -"phosphate induced metal stabilisation".

There are a lot of phosphate buffers - "potassium dihydrogen phosphate" KH2PO4 (buffers just below pH7) for example, so I suppose it is possible, but very much a chance occurence.

The volume question Mac mentions is also very relevant, this is why Marine and Lake Tang. cichlids are unable to cope with much change in temperature, pH, salinity etc. they've evolved in huge stable water bodies with very highly buffered water, it's also why big tanks are easier to maintain water quality in than small tanks.

pH Buffers (warning contains a bit of chemistry)
All a pH buffer is a compound that is soluble at one pH range, but insoluble in others. They consist of a mixture of a weak acid and its base. It has the property that the pH of the solution changes very little when a small amount of strong acid or base is added to it, so it "buffers" changes in pH.

This is also how the buffering of KH by calcium carbonate CaCO3 works (in this case the acid and conjugated base base are carbonic acid and bicarbonate).

CaCO3, or calcium carbonate is insoluble and is the main constituent of limestone. H2CO3, or carbonic acid is what you get when you dissolve CO2 in water by the following formula:

CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3 but when you add some KH Ca(HCO3)2 <--> CaCO3 + H2CO3

Ca(HCO3)2, actually Ca++ and HCO3- ions, is soluble and is what you measure as the carbonate hardness (KH) of your aquarium water.

Both of these reactions are at equilibrium and reversible. If you add components to one side of the reaction, you drive it in the other direction. if you add CO2 to an aquarium that has calcium carbonate decorations (e.g. dolomite or coral), you will dissolve some of the CaCO3 to make Ca(HCO3)2 and thereby increase the hardness of water. On the other hand, if you have fairly hard water and the CO2 content is decreased, CaCO3 will precipitate out (limescale) and H2CO3 is released into the water until an equilibrium is eached. In this way, Ca(HCO3)2 acts as a buffer in aquarium water. This is also why hard water resists pH changes much better than soft water, it has a much larger reserve of buffer which we call its carbonate hardness KH.

cheers Darrel

Well some one who knows this post is spot on I have a very small understanding of water chemistry so I try to keep it simple when I post But it is wonderful to have some one explain it like this.

Nice to know I am right going along the lines of watching the Kh

Keep up the good work

 

[Doodles]

The water companies add ortho-phosphate ("for control of plumbosolvency") to water and these combine with any lead (Pb) in the tap water and precipitates the lead out of solution as insoluble, pH stable, lead phosphate compounds.

Ah yes, i did know why phosphates were added then. I remember now about lead.

Thanks for the post Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Thanks for the kind comments. It has been working in the lab that has allowed me to get my head around things like pH, buffering and water quality, if I hadn't had the practical experience of them I still wouldn't really understand what I was doing, or why.

That is also hopefully why I'm a better fish keeper this time around than I was the first time, when I used to kill my fish on a regular basis, and eventually became disillusioned with the hobby.

The really important thing was having people to talk to, which is why forums like this are great, the WWW gives you access to people like Mac, CUP, G, Jo etc. who've have had years of practical experience of fish keeping.

As an example it was only when someone I work with explained how buffers work to me (in non-technical terms) that the penny eventually dropped that the important thing is "a pH buffer is a compound that is soluble at one pH range, but insoluble in others", meaning that you can a have a large reserve of it sitting there and only coming into play when conditions change.

cheers Darrel

 

[FF MkII]

Bloody good work

 

[Doodles]

Wait till you read Darrels article, awesome. Be a few days yet though as sorting out how to put it on here.

 

[cory1]

Just been reading this topic with great interest,we live in Bundaberg,Queensland, Australia
and the water is horrible..it is bore water with an out of the tap pH of 8 GH is about 30 but my problem is the KH 0
Because the water does not have a buffering effect if i use Hydrochloric acid to lower the pH, it is unstable..and once the available CO2 is driven off the pH bounces back not as high but still too high for my needs
I would really appreciate some input into this issue and some solutions as to what to do in the longer term..I age 2x500 Lt containers of water which are air-rated

 

[Doodles]

Would it not be possible to use RO to lower the PH but also use baking soda to raise the KH to around 4 or so which should be stable enough and not raise the PH too much?

What Ph are you hoping for?

 

[cory1]

The problem with this water is trying to keep all things stable..if i could find away to keep my water parameters stable it would solve all my problems
So far i have run tap water through carbon filters,added Hydrochloric acid and baking soda,have a bag of peat moss in the holding tanks,Indian almond leaves..the only thing i haven't tried is Voodoo

 

[Doodles]

lol. Baking soda should raise the KH enough to hold the ph stable but i think it will raise the ph a little too which you dont want.

Do you have access to RO at all?

 

[cory1]

Short answer is no