PH 6.5 any good?

[mike0605]

Hi everyone.

Just after peoples opinions on PH 6.5 is this any good for the getting the desired water qualities most plecos require for breeding etc?


I just wanted to check before spending money on something that may not be that great

Thanks

 

[Doug]

depends of the Pleco. For most of them it is about spot on. Thats about what I aim for with my bristlenose

 

[jacksonsjones]

Hi Ya Mike,
6.5 is ideal and again it depends on the spp you have. But most L's will do just fine on the slightly acidic side.
Just a hint for you. Before getting your expensive fish, make sure your ph is set right first. Here in Sydney, Australia, the tap water is approx. ph7.8, so I generally condition my water for 2weeks in holding tanks before doing water changes.
Good luck

J

 

[Irene0100]

6.5 good for most plecs, do you know what the tds is?

 

[mike0605]

thanks I dont know what the tds is it was a 6.5 buffer I was refering to as to whether it would work well to treat the water with that.

My ph from the tap is 7.4 so I wanted to lower it in a barrel store then use on tanks/to set tanks up etc.

I have decided to go with natural oak extract from jo zebs.

I am going to experiment with so many litres of water and once i know how much to add to get the desired ph/softness I will make a note and only adjust this if I feel a particular species would prefer slight more or less acidic water.

 

[macvsog23]

I have spawned many Hypans and other fish PH is not the key what is the key is the Kh and the TDS
My tanks are around 6.8 Ph I do not worry about the PH in fact this post prompted me to check my PH in every tank for the first time in years. it is atill the same as it was when I last checked it.

A stable PH is caused by the Kh .

Regards

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

6.5 buffer I was refering to as to whether it would work well to treat the water with that.

I wouldn't use a pH buffer, as other posters have said pH values aren't very useful without KH and TDS values. You should be able to get these from your water company web-site.

The problem with the buffer is that it will raise the TDS. Low pH, high TDS water is very different from naturally soft water.

The pH buffer is probably a phosphate buffer, usually for pH6.5 it is a mixture of the weak acid NaH2PO4 (sodium hydrogen phosphate) and weak base Na2HPO4 (di-sodium hydrogen phosphate) these are in equilibrium at pH6.5, and as the solution becomes more acid more Na2HPO4 goes into solution buffering the pH back to pH6.5 and as it becomes more alkaline more NaH2PO4 goes into solution buffering the pH back to pH6.5.

The problem with this is that for this to work you need an excess of the 2 sodium compounds, if you already have a lot of salts present (for example calcium carbonate from limestone in hard water) you need to have a lot of "pH6.5 buffer" to counter the alkalinity from the limestone.

Hope that makes sense, buffering is a bit of a strange concept. Have a look at these threads for some more detail if you need to: <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8904> & <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8744>

cheers Darrel

 

[mike0605]

water

Here is the info I got from the website means nothing to me other than the ph which is pretty much spot on to when I tested the ph of the water from the tap which was 7.4.

any ideas of my tds from any of the below? and how best i tackle adjusting it for plecs to thrive / breed?

Parameter Min Average Max Units Regulatory Standard Number of samples % failed
2,4-D <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Aldrin <0.0020 <0.0020 <0.0020 µg/l 0.03 19 0.00
Aluminium <3.39 <7.53 34.4 µg Al/l 200 54 0.00
Ammonium (ammonia and ammonium ions) <0.0051 <0.0215 <0.0328 mg NH4/l 0.5 27 0.00
Antimony 0.0900 0.153 0.240 µg Sb/l 5 8 0.00
Arsenic 0.210 0.263 0.350 µg As/l 10 8 0.00
Benzene <0.0349 <0.0349 <0.0349 µg/l 1 14 0.00
Benzo(a)pyrene <0.0020 <0.0020 <0.0020 µg/l 0.01 7 0.00
Boron 0.0044 0.0173 0.0268 mg B/l 1 15 0.00
Bromate <0.470 <0.470 <0.470 µg BrO3/l 10 8 0.00
Bromoxynil <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Cadmium <0.0200 <0.0325 <0.0400 µg Cd/l 5 8 0.00
Calcium 23.4 36.8 51.1 mg Ca/l 54 0.00
Carbendazim <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
Chloride 14.5 29.9 63.1 mg Cl/l 250 16 0.00
Chromium <0.160 <0.326 0.580 µg Cr/l 50 8 0.00
Residual chlorine - Total 0.05 0.30 0.71 mg/l 135 0.00
Residual chlorine - Free 0.03 0.23 0.60 mg/l 135 0.00
Chlortoluron <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
Chlormequat <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 17 0.00
Colony Counts after 2 days at 37 deg C 0 1 25 number/1ml 55 0.00
Colony counts after 3 days at 22 deg C 0 0 3 number/1ml 55 0.00
Coliform bacteria 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 135 0.00
Colour <0.390 <0.759 2.24 mg/l Pt/Co scale 20 53 0.00
Conductivity 189 306 406 uS/cm at 20oC 2500 27 0.00
Copper 0.0027 0.0095 0.0148 mg Cu/l 2 8 0.00
Clostridium perfringens (including spores) 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 51 0.00
Clopyralid <0.0147 <0.0147 <0.0147 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Cyanide <0.698 <1.00 <3.41 µg CN/l 50 18 0.00
Cyanazine <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
1,2-dichloroethane <0.103 <0.103 <0.103 µg/l 3 14 0.00
Dieldrin <0.0030 <0.0030 <0.0030 µg/l 0.03 10 0.00
Dichlorprop <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Diuron <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
E.coli 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 135 0.00
Enterococci 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 8 0.00
Fluoride 0.0600 0.0863 0.100 mg F/l 1.5 8 0.00
Fluroxypyr <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Glyphosate <0.0060 <0.0067 <0.0105 µg/l 0.1 19 0.00
Total hardness 28 46 64 mg Ca/l 54 0.00
Heptachlor epoxide <0.0020 <0.0022 <0.0030 µg/l 0.03 8 0.00
Heptachlor <0.0010 <0.0010 <0.0010 µg/l 0.03 10 0.00
Iron 4.52 15.7 125 µg Fe/l 200 54 0.00
Isoproturon <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
Lead <0.120 <0.513 1.25 µg Pb/l 25 8 0.00
Magnesium 2.80 5.61 8.20 mg Mg/l 54 0.00
Manganese 0.600 4.08 45.9 µg Mn/l 50 54 0.00
MCPA <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
MCPB <0.0121 <0.0121 <0.0121 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Mecoprop <0.0100 <0.0100 0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Mercury <0.0100 <0.0131 <0.0175 µg Hg/l 1 17 0.00
Metaldehyde <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Nickel 0.440 1.12 1.70 µg Ni/l 20 8 0.00
Nitrite <0.0053 <0.0066 <0.0095 mg NO2/l 0.5 27 0.00
Nitrate 3.99 8.95 14.6 mg NO3/l 50 27 0.00
(Nitrate)/50 plus (nitrite)/3 0.0790 0.179 0.289 mg/l 1 27 0.00
Odour (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 0 54 0.00
Total organic carbon 1.02 1.34 1.86 mg C/l 16 0.00
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (sum of 4 PAHs) 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 µg/l 0.1 8 0.00
Pesticides - Total 0.0000 0.0011 0.0197 µg/l 0.5 98 0.00
Hydrogen ion (pH) 6.66 7.32 7.84 pH value 9.5 104 0.00
Radioactivity gross alpha <0.0120 <0.0151 0.0250 Bq/l 0.1 16 0.00
Radioactivity gross beta 0.111 0.217 0.297 Bq/l 1 16 0.00
Selenium 0.280 0.494 0.710 µg Se/l 10 8 0.00
Sodium 13.7 22.9 30.3 mg Na/l 200 54 0.00
Sulphate 44.1 56.7 79.9 mg SO4/l 250 17 0.00
Taste (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 0 54 0.00
Tetrachloromethane <0.0353 <0.0360 0.0400 µg/l 3 7 0.00
Trihalomethanes - Total 24.5 39.5 52.3 µg/l 100 7 0.00
Triclopyr <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Tetrachloroethene and trichloroethene 0.0000 0.0290 0.203 µg/l 10 7 0.00
Turbidity <0.09 <0.16 0.64 NTU 4 53 0.00
Detailed

 

[macvsog23]

Here is the info I got from the website means nothing to me other than the ph which is pretty much spot on to when I tested the ph of the water from the tap which was 7.4.

any ideas of my tds from any of the below? and how best i tackle adjusting it for plecs to thrive / breed?

Parameter Min Average Max Units Regulatory Standard Number of samples % failed
2,4-D <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Aldrin <0.0020 <0.0020 <0.0020 µg/l 0.03 19 0.00
Aluminium <3.39 <7.53 34.4 µg Al/l 200 54 0.00
Ammonium (ammonia and ammonium ions) <0.0051 <0.0215 <0.0328 mg NH4/l 0.5 27 0.00
Antimony 0.0900 0.153 0.240 µg Sb/l 5 8 0.00
Arsenic 0.210 0.263 0.350 µg As/l 10 8 0.00
Benzene <0.0349 <0.0349 <0.0349 µg/l 1 14 0.00
Benzo(a)pyrene <0.0020 <0.0020 <0.0020 µg/l 0.01 7 0.00
Boron 0.0044 0.0173 0.0268 mg B/l 1 15 0.00
Bromate <0.470 <0.470 <0.470 µg BrO3/l 10 8 0.00
Bromoxynil <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Cadmium <0.0200 <0.0325 <0.0400 µg Cd/l 5 8 0.00
Calcium 23.4 36.8 51.1 mg Ca/l 54 0.00
Carbendazim <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
Chloride 14.5 29.9 63.1 mg Cl/l 250 16 0.00
Chromium <0.160 <0.326 0.580 µg Cr/l 50 8 0.00
Residual chlorine - Total 0.05 0.30 0.71 mg/l 135 0.00
Residual chlorine - Free 0.03 0.23 0.60 mg/l 135 0.00
Chlortoluron <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
Chlormequat <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 17 0.00
Colony Counts after 2 days at 37 deg C 0 1 25 number/1ml 55 0.00
Colony counts after 3 days at 22 deg C 0 0 3 number/1ml 55 0.00
Coliform bacteria 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 135 0.00
Colour <0.390 <0.759 2.24 mg/l Pt/Co scale 20 53 0.00
Conductivity 189 306 406 uS/cm at 20oC 2500 27 0.00
Copper 0.0027 0.0095 0.0148 mg Cu/l 2 8 0.00
Clostridium perfringens (including spores) 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 51 0.00
Clopyralid <0.0147 <0.0147 <0.0147 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Cyanide <0.698 <1.00 <3.41 µg CN/l 50 18 0.00
Cyanazine <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
1,2-dichloroethane <0.103 <0.103 <0.103 µg/l 3 14 0.00
Dieldrin <0.0030 <0.0030 <0.0030 µg/l 0.03 10 0.00
Dichlorprop <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Diuron <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
E.coli 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 135 0.00
Enterococci 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 8 0.00
Fluoride 0.0600 0.0863 0.100 mg F/l 1.5 8 0.00
Fluroxypyr <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Glyphosate <0.0060 <0.0067 <0.0105 µg/l 0.1 19 0.00
Total hardness 28 46 64 mg Ca/l 54 0.00
Heptachlor epoxide <0.0020 <0.0022 <0.0030 µg/l 0.03 8 0.00
Heptachlor <0.0010 <0.0010 <0.0010 µg/l 0.03 10 0.00
Iron 4.52 15.7 125 µg Fe/l 200 54 0.00
Isoproturon <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 14 0.00
Lead <0.120 <0.513 1.25 µg Pb/l 25 8 0.00
Magnesium 2.80 5.61 8.20 mg Mg/l 54 0.00
Manganese 0.600 4.08 45.9 µg Mn/l 50 54 0.00
MCPA <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
MCPB <0.0121 <0.0121 <0.0121 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Mecoprop <0.0100 <0.0100 0.0100 µg/l 0.1 16 0.00
Mercury <0.0100 <0.0131 <0.0175 µg Hg/l 1 17 0.00
Metaldehyde <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Nickel 0.440 1.12 1.70 µg Ni/l 20 8 0.00
Nitrite <0.0053 <0.0066 <0.0095 mg NO2/l 0.5 27 0.00
Nitrate 3.99 8.95 14.6 mg NO3/l 50 27 0.00
(Nitrate)/50 plus (nitrite)/3 0.0790 0.179 0.289 mg/l 1 27 0.00
Odour (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 0 54 0.00
Total organic carbon 1.02 1.34 1.86 mg C/l 16 0.00
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (sum of 4 PAHs) 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 µg/l 0.1 8 0.00
Pesticides - Total 0.0000 0.0011 0.0197 µg/l 0.5 98 0.00
Hydrogen ion (pH) 6.66 7.32 7.84 pH value 9.5 104 0.00
Radioactivity gross alpha <0.0120 <0.0151 0.0250 Bq/l 0.1 16 0.00
Radioactivity gross beta 0.111 0.217 0.297 Bq/l 1 16 0.00
Selenium 0.280 0.494 0.710 µg Se/l 10 8 0.00
Sodium 13.7 22.9 30.3 mg Na/l 200 54 0.00
Sulphate 44.1 56.7 79.9 mg SO4/l 250 17 0.00
Taste (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 0 54 0.00
Tetrachloromethane <0.0353 <0.0360 0.0400 µg/l 3 7 0.00
Trihalomethanes - Total 24.5 39.5 52.3 µg/l 100 7 0.00
Triclopyr <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 15 0.00
Tetrachloroethene and trichloroethene 0.0000 0.0290 0.203 µg/l 10 7 0.00
Turbidity <0.09 <0.16 0.64 NTU 4 53 0.00
Detailed

Mr D will be able to explain the tec details.
If you’re trying to spawn some of the easy to breed plecos tap water will do.
If you’re going for the more unusual fish like the Hypans I suggest using RO and HMA mixed water.
I and many others have detailed the best way to do this in other threads just check out any thread called RO ***** or some thing the same.

 

[Doug]

I agree with not using buffers. Im in Adelaide and out tapwater comes out of the tap at 7.8 but goes to about 8.2 when all the CO2 comes out solution. Its hard as a rock and the TDS is really high. After I moved and lost access to rainwater I went back to using buffered tap water. I had t use 2 times the dose on the bottle and still had issues.

Then the bristlenose stopped breeding and the water went cloudy. After checking all the parameters it was the phosphate levels which were not only off the chart, but the electronic one at uni couldn't get a good read on it either, either way it was over 50ppm (enough to cause it to precipitate out of solution :wb

I bit the bullet and have being using RO water for the past month and my grow out tank is slowly filling again

lesson is Aussie tap water is generally bogus, rain water is the cheepest and easiest way to go, if not get a puretap type thing or if you have the coin, a proper RO system. Your fish will thank you for it.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
There are a lot of parameters, the legal requirement is to put in values for pesticides (24 D, Aldrin etc.) and heavy metals (antimony, arsenic etc.). The law is very tight on these now, so I'm going to ignore them. Some other values we might be interested in, like Potassium (K) or Phosphorus (P), aren't relevant to human health, so aren't quoted.

The ones of most interest to us are these, I've given the average value, but the maximum values could be useful as well:

Ammonia/ium - <0.0215 mg NH4/l
Calcium - 36.8 mg Ca/l (mg/l = ppm)
Residual chlorine - 0.30 mg/l
Conductivity - 306 uS/cm at 20oC
Total hardness - 46 mg Ca/l
Magnesium - 5.61 mg Mg/l
Nitrate - 8.95 mg NO3/l
Nitrite - <0.0066 mg NO2/l
Hydrogen ion (pH) 7.32 pH
Sodium - 22.9 mg Na/l

The conclusion you can draw from these is that the water is definitely OK, it has small amount of ammonium, chlorine and nitrite, suggesting that you use a conditioner like "Prime", or an HMA filter. The hardness and TDS (conductivity x 0.64 = TDS) are middling, not really soft low hardness water, but not hard either. There is a bit of magnesium (useful if you grow plants) and quite a lot of sodium (not so useful). Nitrate levels are also fairly low.

You would really want the water a bit softer and with lower TDS for the more sensitive fish, so I definitely wouldn't use the pH buffer. Ideally you could mix the HMA treated tap-water with RO to give a TDS of about 100 - 150. Mac won't agree but another option is to cut it with rain-water (like Doug suggests). I've always used rain-water without any problem, but I'm lucky to live in a rural area, with little industry to the West or SW of me.

cheers Darrel

 

[macvsog23]

Rain water is fine if you’re aware of its construction.
I just have been involved in waste disposal in aircraft and have nightmares about it.
Hijacking a bit I worked for a Aero company and my last job was cleaning the poo choppers LOL

 

[mike0605]

thanks guys this is useful to know.

thanks for all your help. Based on the readings above at a rough guess what percentage ro/rain water would you mix with hma filtered water?

thanks again

 

[Joby]

My PH is 7.5 and thats using bogwood/almond leaves/alder cones to try and reduce it but still manage to spawn L174, L260, L134, super red bns, although the L46 are proving to be a little more hesitant :wb: so there is hope for peeps with higher PH :yes:

 

[mike0605]

how best to collect rain water?

Also can anyone recommend a good ro system at a reasonable price?

Ideally want one which will be sufficient for at 6 - 10 tanks bearing in mind I will be mixing ro with hma filtered/tap water and will plan to water change at least couple of times a week.

is rejected ro water hma water? what I mean is, is rejected ro water water which has been filtered through sections 1 and 2 of the ro system making it hma water but is it water which had not passed over the membrane? or is the rejected water rejected for various reasons? as I thought parts one and two of the filter removed heavy metals etc from the water and therefore waste water would in effect not be waste but would just not be ro?

Please confirm as I am sort of guessing here.

Thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Probably best to have a look at Mac's RO thread for the set up and how he mixes his water. <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69560> & <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8744>.

To collect rain-water you need a roof and a water butt, any tiled roof should do, as long as the tiles aren't less than 6 months old. These are 3 (of my 5 water butts), on the back of the house.

I use the water straight from the butt, but other people carbon filter it etc. The only quality control I use is I add some Daphnia to the butts. As long as the Daphnia are swimming around OK, the water is OK.

In the glasshouse I've got 2 of these 1000l. IBC's, and if I needed more water I'd definitely recommend them. They are single use commercially and then they are sold off to farms etc. I paid £60 each for them.

cheers Darrel

 

[mike0605]

Thats great thanks Darrel

 

[L777]

Hi,

is rejected ro water hma water?

No.

what I mean is, is rejected ro water water which has been filtered through sections 1 and 2 of the ro system making it hma water but is it water which had not passed over the membrane? or is the rejected water rejected for various reasons? as I thought parts one and two of the filter removed heavy metals etc from the water and therefore waste water would in effect not be waste but would just not be ro?

Please confirm as I am sort of guessing here.

Thanks

You've completely got the wrong end of the stick here.

RO water is water which has passed through a membrane.

Reject water is water that went across the membrane but didn't go through.

Membranes work on a system called 'crossflow' whereby the water is passed over a membrane under pressure, only pure water can go through it.

HMA water is water that has been filtered through a special type of filter which isn't normally the type used for stages 1 and 2 of an RO system. This filter specifically targets the heavy metals. However you can with the addition of a CBR2 filter cartridge convert an RO system to produce HMA water.



As for PH 6.5 buffer its a great product as long as you fully understand how to use it and its limitations. But I wouldn't generally advocate its use for treating normal tap water as the KH will be way to high and the ammount needed to stabilise it in solution would actually cause more problems than it solves. But added to RO water as your buffer instead of carbonates will produces excellent water for Amazonian species.

Chris.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd forgotten all about this thread, even though it looks like I participated in it and I'd still give the same advice.

As for PH 6.5 buffer its a great product as long as you fully understand how to use it and its limitations. But I wouldn't generally advocate its use for treating normal tap water as the KH will be way to high and the ammount needed to stabilise it in solution would actually cause more problems than it solves. But added to RO water as your buffer instead of carbonates will produces excellent water for Amazonian species.

I hadn't thought about using a pH buffer to re-constitute RO instead of a 4dKH solution, although we used to do something similar with citric acid / sodium citrate buffers for hydroponics. I'll have to have a think about it, initially it seems a good idea as it would buffer the pH, and black/clear waters are typically very carbonate poor, but I may have over-looked something.

cheers Darrel