Carnivorous Pleco? Sorry, Noob question

[sendthis]

okay, I bet this has been asked but when I do a search for it, I get a mix of answers.

For instance, I was told L333 was carnivorous but not to feed it beef heart due to bloating issues when fed a high protein diet.

So this is what I'm looking for:

Goal - I want a tankmate for my Discus. I feed heavily with beef heart (juveniles). I have some other BNPs that work well with for the algae, but none that are meant to handle a high protein diet. "Friendly" towards other fish/discus.

Secondary Goal - Omnivorous is even better. Not super rare (i.e. expensive). Semi-rare (moderately pricey) is actually preferable.

I'm currently looking at L129, L199, L270, L333? Any others? Are these okay for my purposes?

I've bought the common plecos that grow to 2ft, but they go after the Discus when they hit around 5-6 inches. I didn't think it would work when they got larger so I gave them away on CL.

My tanks (atm): I have two 75G (discus), one 55G (temp empty), and one 29G (QT with baby BNPs). Ideally, I want something in the 3-4 inch adult range. I also would like to breed them one day, but that's more of a "one day" possibility rather than a definite. I have semi-auto clean-up and do WC every day on the discus tanks and as-needed for the QTs.

When feeding a high protein BH diet to the discus tanks, a film gets on the side. When I put the plecos in, it helps keep it clean. Even with daily WCs, it doesn't help unless I wipe or have a pleco.

I appreciate any advice you might be able to offer.

 

[sendthis]

You know, it just occurred to me that while BH mix might not be ideal for plecos (i.e. in the case of L333) it might be the mammalian fats/proteins that are causing it.

Would a seafood mix work instead? I have no problems switching to an all SF mix for my discus as well.

 

[bigbird]

just fyi the L333 is an omnivore, not a carnivore.
BH is very high in protein and fats and I would not feed this in my view to any Ls at all. Ls need a variety and less fats for bloat issues. Ls should also not be fed every day. A seafood mix is also ok, but I think you might need to look at 2 issues.
1. How often do you feed your juvie Discus and what do you feed them every day and how much ?
2. I would vary the pellets for the L333 from vegeterian to meaty and seafood pellets. Maybe feed them at lights out.
just my views cheers jk :thumbup:

 

[sendthis]

For the juvies, I feed them about 6 small meals a day. I usually feed BH twice a night and during the day, I have an auto-feeder feed pellets/flakes.

For the adults, I feed 2 times a day with pellets and once a day with BH.

Anything you can suggest for this feeding schedule? The food is usually eaten within a few minutes. I usually add a little extra for plecos when I have them. The main thing is I think the discus are too lazy to eat some of the finer particles which is what I think fouls up the water.

I was under the impression that plecos were continuous feeders. So a lot of small meals would be beneficial to them too.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Lornek8]

I think corys or loaches will work better for what you're looing for. What you've been told about plecs eating all the time has more to do with herbivore plecs. It not simply the fact that they are plecs, but more to do with the fact they're herbivores. Herbivores are more grazers, like cows. It has to do with the way their digestive systems work. Carnivores, even plec ones, don't tend to eat all the time, again more to do with their digestive systems.

 

[macvsog23]

Discus and Plecos in the same tank is always at best a compromise.
Many issues affect the situation. Mainly diet, temperature, water quality, water flow rates and decor.
Let us take each one at a time

Feeding.
As mentioned Plecos have basically two types of feeding behaviour, grazing as in the more herbivorous types and scavenging as in the omnivore and carnivorous types. the variety of feeding methods they employ is vast some will devour snails using adapted tooth some will eat fresh water sponges some have developed digestive systems to gain protein from wood
This varied diet present a problem as most Plecos along with the preferred feeding behaviour will scavenge for food and despite some foods not being the best for them they will eat them.

Temperature.
Plecos on the whole prefer water that is under 32degrees centigrade, discus are happy in the higher temperature zone above 32 degrees centigrade.
Water is less able to hold oxygen at high temperatures so TDO (Totally Dissolved Oxygen) will be less in a discus tank.

Water Quality.
I am sure we all strive for the best water quality we can get, I am very found of saying “fishmongers keep fish we keep water” but discus require totally pure water. Talk to any discus breeder and they will have the ultimate water recipe adding this and that to his water to get perfect water.
Plecos are in general more tolerant and having such varied habitats finding one that can exist in so delicate a climate may present problems.

Water Flow.
Basically discus hate it Plecos love it.

Décor
Discus come from water rich in reed like plants and very little bog wood tangles, Plecos are not happy in exposed areas were Discus would naturally exist.

One issue that seems to rear it head is Plecos sucking on discus, discus secrete a mucus they use to feed the fry on and some people have reported that Plecos will suck on this mucus. I have seen this with some of the whip tail and smaller Plecos and to be honest it was rather unpleasant to see the discus trying to avoided the Plecos attention.

Finally discus are a brood protector and care for the young for some considerable time after hatching any Pleco that represented a threat to the fry would be attacked.
Having now attempted to destroyed any logical reason to keep the two in the same tank I am now going to say I had a display tank with a pair of discus in and several small B/n, s and it worked ok.

 

[sendthis]

Temperature.
Plecos on the whole prefer water that is under 32degrees centigrade, discus are happy in the higher temperature zone above 32 degrees centigrade.
Water is less able to hold oxygen at high temperatures so TDO (Totally Dissolved Oxygen) will be less in a discus tank.

I don't know, most people I know and on the discus forums don't keep the temp above 32C. That's the upper range, we usually shoot for 28-30 and at times going to 31-32 if we are raising juvies or trying to treat a disease.

Water Quality.
I am sure we all strive for the best water quality we can get, I am very found of saying “fishmongers keep fish we keep water†but discus require totally pure water. Talk to any discus breeder and they will have the ultimate water recipe adding this and that to his water to get perfect water.

That's a myth of discus keeping. One that's quite prevalent and even worse practiced, but mostly wrong. I'm inexperienced with plecos, but I can definitively answer that 'best practices' for discus (especially domestic strains) is to do nothing with the water except maintain temperature, get rid of the chlorine. I fill my tank straight out of the tap with a dechlor. Unless you're breeding, then that changes things.

Water Flow.
Basically discus hate it Plecos love it.

Décor
Discus come from water rich in reed like plants and very little bog wood tangles, Plecos are not happy in exposed areas were Discus would naturally exist.

That is something to consider...

One issue that seems to rear it head is Plecos sucking on discus, discus secrete a mucus they use to feed the fry on and some people have reported that Plecos will suck on this mucus. I have seen this with some of the whip tail and smaller Plecos and to be honest it was rather unpleasant to see the discus trying to
avoided the Plecos attention.

Yep, that's what happened with my common plecos. I was told ancistrus and hypancistrus don't have this issue. That's why I was looking at the ones I mentioned earlier. I know it's not an issue with BNPs or at least I haven't seen it be an issue.

Finally discus are a brood protector and care for the young for some considerable time after hatching any Pleco that represented a threat to the fry would be attacked.
Having now attempted to destroyed any logical reason to keep the two in the same tank I am now going to say I had a display tank with a pair of discus in and several small B/n, s and it worked ok.

I'm not planning on keeping them in my breeding tank. For the breeding tank, I will only have the pair, a cone, and a sponge filter. I'll have to put the elbow grease into cleaning the glass myself for that. It's the juvenile grow-out tanks I'm going to put them in (discus > 1").

Thanks for the advice. I'll consider the points you made. I'm guessing the general consensus is no plecos with discus on this forum? They're rather popular tank mates for the people who are regulars in the discus forums. The only issue being the BH and bloating for plecos.

 

[Lornek8]

I'm guessing the general consensus is no plecos with discus on this forum?

Not necessarily true. Its the intent that you're talking about using them for. They aren't great scavengers, they are rather messy eaters in their own right. There are better suited fish for this purpose, or even possibly snails.

It is basically just misconceptions. The average person thinks plecs, with their big sucker mouths, are simply algae eating scavenger fish. Its quite a broad generalization & most often quite untrue. Kinda like the idea of needing a magic water mixture for discus that you touched on before.

 

[sendthis]

Not necessarily true. Its the intent that you're talking about using them for. They aren't great scavengers, they are rather messy eaters in their own right. There are better suited fish for this purpose, or even possibly snails.

Very good point. I guess I forgot to mention I wanted plecos too. I was trying to have my "cake and eat it too" I suppose. I figured I could have an awesome looking pleco and discus and have a win-win scenario (with the right type). So a better statement would have been to say, "I guess the general consensus is that there isn't a pleco species that comes to mind that fits my criteria."

It is basically just misconceptions. The average person thinks plecs, with their big sucker mouths, are simply algae eating scavenger fish. Its quite a broad generalization & most often quite untrue. Kinda like the idea of needing a magic water mixture for discus that you touched on before.

 

[macvsog23]

I understand the water comments BUT and a big But my obsession is with the water.
I believe that fish can survive in water not suited to the natural conditions but I would never use tap water for any fish and my main aim is to match the water as near as possible to the natural water the fish come from.
I am willing to admit it is not totally necessary but for me it’s an obsession. I would not buy a fish before totally understanding the water conditions it lives in be it tank breed or WC.
People think I am obsessive but I believe I keep water not fish.

I have spent over 40 years aiming for this point in fish keeping using every water changing gimmick I have ever seen. Only in the last 10 years have I got it what I will call spot on.
I have almost no deaths and spawn almost 50% of the fish I want to spawn.
I do accept some people will not wish to follow my example but my main reason is we cant ask the fish if its right and to quote that the fish is alive is I believe fooling ourselves.
I am not condemning any one who uses tap water but I would never use it along with rain water it is an unstable media.

 

[Brengun]

Leporacanthicus, Lithoxus, Megalancistrus, Pseudacanthicus, Scobiancistrus and Spectracanthicus and the only species ranked as true carnivores.

All the rest are either wood eaters, omnivores or herbivores and have a different digestive system to carnivores.

If you do more investigation into discus you will find in the wild a very large portion of their diet is fruits, vegetables etc and the rest is bugs, critter eggs, fish fry and shrimp. No bullocks offering their hearts for a dinner feast there.

 

[bigbird]

very true brengun + 1 on that cheers jk :thumbup:

 

[sendthis]

If you do more investigation into discus you will find in the wild a very large portion of their diet is fruits, vegetables etc and the rest is bugs, critter eggs, fish fry and shrimp. No bullocks offering their hearts for a dinner feast there.

I'm not going to debate their diet here, there's 1,000,000 threads in the Discus forums (pick one, they all have them) about this. Each of them have about 100 different views.

Optimal growth for discus stands at 45-50% protein. A good portion of what doesn't offer itself to us "naturally" is on our dinner plates and there's even a decent portion of those that are considered healthy for us.

Leporacanthicus, Lithoxus, Megalancistrus, Pseudacanthicus, Scobiancistrus and Spectracanthicus and the only species ranked as true carnivores.

Thanks!