L183 Starlight eggs!!!
- Thread starter VickiandKev
- Start date
The thing is I think people forget that fish are living, and can therefore adapt over time. Thanks for the link I will read it today. There is so much discussion regarding identifying fish and categorising them that I don't think any one will come to any conclusive and agreed answer (not any time soon anyway) The only real way to categorise these fish would be DNA tests. From my understanding (from the article) fish species are more widely distributed than we think. There is still talk whether the blue and green phantoms are the same just different colours because they are from different areas of the river with different parameters! Our boy has the nine soft and one hard but we don't think our girl does, but they look identical and nothing like any other L number. We recently spoke to our friend in the catfish study group and she agrees there are to many variations between 183 and dorsal rays to say its an identifiable factor.
Any way will keep you posted!
cheers
Any way will keep you posted!
cheers
Hi all,
Because of the difference between the water that you bred your L182 in, and the water successfully used by Elaine and other breeders I think it is much more likely that your fish is an un-described species from much more base rich water (and I would bet that there are hundreds of these). The other option, is the other suggested one that L182 occurs as a variety of ecotypes over a wide geographical range, and that this is a form or ecotype of L182 from more base rich waters than the ones normally imported.
cheers Darrel
This is true, but any adaptation outside the normal "tolerance" of the fish would happen over generations in captivity by the most adaptable fish breeding successfully in the F0 and F1 generations and having more off-spring, and then by the breeders mating these F1 together in the F2, and subsequent generations, to fix these desirable characteristics (just like you would do for long-fins etc. and what has happened in Cardinal Tetras etc.). The usual problem with black-water fish is that they don't have much resistance to pests and pathogens because they have evolved in water which is both acid and rich in anti-microbial organic compounds. This lack of resistance (often shown most strongly by eggs and young) means that they are difficult to keep and/or breed in water that doesn't contain humic acids and phenolic compounds, and even if there is some genetic variability to work with, the difficulty of breeding them in less acid waters means that it is very difficult to select for off-spring with a greater ecological range.I think people forget that fish are living, and can therefore adapt over time.
Because of the difference between the water that you bred your L182 in, and the water successfully used by Elaine and other breeders I think it is much more likely that your fish is an un-described species from much more base rich water (and I would bet that there are hundreds of these). The other option, is the other suggested one that L182 occurs as a variety of ecotypes over a wide geographical range, and that this is a form or ecotype of L182 from more base rich waters than the ones normally imported.
cheers Darrel
lol I wasn't implying that our L183s had adapted in our tanks as I am aware of the requirements for selective breeding (fixing genes and generations). I was suggesting that these fish can adapt to these water parameters and as long as they are not stressed, can breed and live happily in harder water. Its important to add that our male has the 9 soft and one hard dorsal ray and he has never had any health concerns. I think this is due to the amount of bogwood and almond leaves we provide. Its also important to point out that acid water doesn't have any more 'anti-microbial organic compounds' than alkaline water its just that acidic water by nature ('super-oxidative properties') can combat against some bacterial/fungal infectious agents. So I think with the bogwood and its 'immune boosting' tannins we have provided some of the important properties of a black water environment just without the acidic/softer water parameters.Hi all,
This is true, but any adaptation outside the normal "tolerance" of the fish would happen over generations in captivity by the most adaptable fish breeding successfully in the F0 and F1 generations and having more off-spring, and then by the breeders mating these F1 together in the F2, and subsequent generations, to fix these desirable characteristics (just like you would do for long-fins etc. and what has happened in Cardinal Tetras etc.). The usual problem with black-water fish is that they don't have much resistance to pests and pathogens because they have evolved in water which is both acid and rich in anti-microbial organic compounds. This lack of resistance (often shown most strongly by eggs and young) means that they are difficult to keep and/or breed in water that doesn't contain humic acids and phenolic compounds, and even if there is some genetic variability to work with, the difficulty of breeding them in less acid waters means that it is very difficult to select for off-spring with a greater ecological range.
Because of the difference between the water that you bred your L182 in, and the water successfully used by Elaine and other breeders I think it is much more likely that your fish is an un-described species from much more base rich water (and I would bet that there are hundreds of these). The other option, is the other suggested one that L182 occurs as a variety of ecotypes over a wide geographical range, and that this is a form or ecotype of L182 from more base rich waters than the ones normally imported.
cheers Darrel
cheers
Hi all,
I'd still love to have a DNA analysis done, I'd be surprised if your fish and Elaines' is the same species, although as I don't think any-one is working on the DNA of Loricariids, we are never going to know. There is a discussion thread on these on "Planet Catfish", as well as on the "L-welse" link Elaine posted (you can get to L-welse via Planet Catfish and use Google translate).
I'm hoping that I can quantify this by plating out water soluble extracts from Terminalia catappa, Alnus glutinosa, Ouercus, Camellia etc onto a microbial lawn and looking at the "zone of inhibition/minimum lethal concentration" from differing dilution rates (using a disc assay).
I've done this for other anti-microbial compounds (from Red wine, Tea, Garcinia indica, various Herbs, the sap from Aloe species etc.), using E.coli, Staph. alba & Saccharomyces cerevisiae lawns (gram positive, gram negative bacteria and a fungi (yeast)).
Here is a Terminalia paper:
Research Journal of Microbiology
Year: 2007 | Volume: 2 | Issue: 2 | Page No.: 180-184
DOI: 10.3923/jm.2007.180.184
In vitro Antibacterial Activity of the Extracts Derived from Terminalia catappa
Shahina Naz , Samia Ahmad , Sheikh Ajaz Rasool , Rahmanullah Siddiqi and Syed Asad Sayeed
Abs
The extracts derived from Terminalia catappa leaves and fruit following antibacterial activity directed isolation, were screened for their antibacterial activity against species of corynebacteria, staphylococci, streptococci, enterococci, escherichia, salmonella and shigella. The results indicated that crude ethanolic extract, aqueous fraction of crude extract and its sub fractions (petroleum ether and ethylacetate) possessed prominent antibacterial activity, therefore supporting the medicinal uses of this species
and a methodology one of mine:
"The anti-bacterial activity of 12 Allium species against E. coli"
Maidment, D C J | Dembny, Z | Watts, D I
Nutrition & Food Science. Vol. 31, no. 5. Oct. 2001
cheers Darrel
Very true, this probably is the important part, "good" conditions (which don't stress the fish at all) can play a significant role in both welfare and breeding.I was suggesting that these fish can adapt to these water parameters and as long as they are not stressed, can breed and live happily in harder water. Its important to add that our male has the 9 soft and one hard dorsal ray and he has never had any health concerns. I think this is due to the amount of bogwood and almond leaves we provide.
I'd still love to have a DNA analysis done, I'd be surprised if your fish and Elaines' is the same species, although as I don't think any-one is working on the DNA of Loricariids, we are never going to know. There is a discussion thread on these on "Planet Catfish", as well as on the "L-welse" link Elaine posted (you can get to L-welse via Planet Catfish and use Google translate).
No, it isn't only an oxidative and immune boosting response (although I'm sure these are important), the "black water" really is anti-microbial. A simple test is to visually assess the rate of decomposition of a Beech leaf (Fagus sylvatica) in waters of differing pH (de-ionised + buffer) and with the pH adjusted using an Indian Almond leaf. If you wish to discount oxygen effects you can do this in a shallow film of moving water. You can use visual assessment, because the leaf decays at much faster rate in both the alkaline and buffered water (down to about pH4) than it does in the leaf extract.Its also important to point out that acid water doesn't have any more 'anti-microbial organic compounds' than alkaline water its just that acidic water by nature ('super-oxidative properties') can combat against some bacterial/fungal infectious agents. So I think with the bogwood and its 'immune boosting' tannins we have provided some of the important properties of a black water environment just without the acidic/softer water parameters.
I'm hoping that I can quantify this by plating out water soluble extracts from Terminalia catappa, Alnus glutinosa, Ouercus, Camellia etc onto a microbial lawn and looking at the "zone of inhibition/minimum lethal concentration" from differing dilution rates (using a disc assay).
I've done this for other anti-microbial compounds (from Red wine, Tea, Garcinia indica, various Herbs, the sap from Aloe species etc.), using E.coli, Staph. alba & Saccharomyces cerevisiae lawns (gram positive, gram negative bacteria and a fungi (yeast)).
Here is a Terminalia paper:
Research Journal of Microbiology
Year: 2007 | Volume: 2 | Issue: 2 | Page No.: 180-184
DOI: 10.3923/jm.2007.180.184
In vitro Antibacterial Activity of the Extracts Derived from Terminalia catappa
Shahina Naz , Samia Ahmad , Sheikh Ajaz Rasool , Rahmanullah Siddiqi and Syed Asad Sayeed
Abs
The extracts derived from Terminalia catappa leaves and fruit following antibacterial activity directed isolation, were screened for their antibacterial activity against species of corynebacteria, staphylococci, streptococci, enterococci, escherichia, salmonella and shigella. The results indicated that crude ethanolic extract, aqueous fraction of crude extract and its sub fractions (petroleum ether and ethylacetate) possessed prominent antibacterial activity, therefore supporting the medicinal uses of this species
and a methodology one of mine:
"The anti-bacterial activity of 12 Allium species against E. coli"
Maidment, D C J | Dembny, Z | Watts, D I
Nutrition & Food Science. Vol. 31, no. 5. Oct. 2001
cheers Darrel