L260 and L333 Fry Dying low TDS

Duds1000

Member
May 22, 2009
24
0
1
Dundee
Hi all
I have a problem with my L260 and L333 fry. they die same day they hatch!!!
The egg sack is not used up and I have the same problem leaving them in the cave or removing them to an egg tumbler!!! This has happened with a few spawns now! both tanks are 30 gall TDS of 67-68ppm PH of 6.9, Temp 29-30c
internal filter with venturi, 10% water change daily using HMA water with a TDS of 50ppm. My tap water is about 147ppm, is the problem the low TDS? should i just use my tap water? Help please.
Graham
 

Doodles

Retired Staff
Apr 8, 2009
8,786
3
36
Are you converting tap water to HMA?

I thought HMA is water that has heavy metals and chlorine removed? not sure about chloramines or how the TDS would be that low if it was tap water.

Whats the KH?
 

Highlandken

Member
May 6, 2009
41
0
6
Loch Ness, Scotland
Duds,
You could try adding some RO right to up the TDS. I use Kent, my tapwater has a TDS of twelve!
I don't think low TDS would kill them so quickly. My breeding tanks are around 100TDS and the fry always survive.
Could the cartridges in your HMA unit be needing changed ?
Or you could try tapwater conditioned with prime?
Good luck in getting to the bottom of it :)

.
 

Duds1000

Member
May 22, 2009
24
0
1
Dundee
Hi yes converting tap water (My tap water is 147ppm) to HMA (My HMA water is 50ppm out the filter) I will try changing the filter cartridges see if that fixes the problem. I might keep one tank HMA water and use Kent conditioned tap water in the other see what happens!!! Thanks for the information guys. I will check the KH.
 

thegeeman

Member
Apr 21, 2009
2,256
0
36
52
In the house of gee
I am pretty sure using HMA alone doesnt alter the TDS and even if it did I dont think its by much. TDS of 68 is a little lower than I have kept mine at which does sometimes get as low as 100 like Kens. You have got them spawning so it wont be long before you/they get it right:clap:.

Goodluck

thegeeman
 

Bwhiskered

Member
Feb 3, 2010
32
0
6
Canada
I don't think the low TDS has anything to do with your problem. I think the problem could be a Salmonella Bacteria to blame. I had the problem with angels and discus breeders have had the same problem. One was good enough to hand out the answer many years ago. Here is my present story and the results. I have had 2 male and 1 female L-174 plecos for 3 years. The first few times that they spawned the eggs were eaten by the male. Finally I took the eggs from the cave as soon as they were spawned. The eggs all hatched but died of bloat before becoming ready to feed. The next time I left them with the male. The fry hatched but soon started to drift out of the cave dead and bloated. It was then it clicked that the problem was bacterial. The problem is that the bacteria is carried by one or both parents the female being the likely suspect. The bacteria does not appear to affect the adult in any way but is passed on to and through the eggs. The answer is to treat the parents tank with 2 or 3 full doses of Metrodiazonle. I use Seachem Metro as directed. I does not harm your fish.After giving this treatment in December I got a spawning on January 4th. I still have the 17 fry that I removed from the cave to a fry saver. The TDS was 92 and Ph 6.

Salmonella can come from food or poor water conditions. Not always from your care but from dealers tanks when they were shipped and may live in a fishes system for years.
 

Andrew

Member
May 3, 2009
313
0
16
Renfrewshire, Scotland, UK.
Duds
Are you grinding up the food now that fry are in the tank, fry can choke if the food is not ground up, it made a big difference for my fry.
Remember to feed some veg for hypancistrus fry each feeding.
And try putting some Indian Almond leaves in the tank, the general idea is one leave for 10G and replace them weekly, the leaves have a natural bacterial property to them.
You'll find some here; http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/

Try to feed as near to the fry cave as possible, my fry don't venture far from the cave in the beginning.
And try feeding a little micro worm with each feeding.

Are you hoovering your substrate each day, running your fingers through the sand and hoovering, things like that helped me. making sure the substrate is really clean.
I only do this weekly with an adult only tank, when doing a water change, but find it much better doing it daily when fry are in the tank.

Is there anywhere for the fry to hide that the adults can't get into.
I put oyster shells in my tank to help with low kh, but found fry like to hide under them as well, things like that are nice tight hiding places for the fry in.
Pieces of wood are the best for fry to hide in the cracks in it, but a pile of small stones where the fry can squeeze between the gaps, works as well.

If the parents are breeding i don't think there is much wrong with your water.
The only thing i would watch for is, with such a low TDS, you wil have a low KH, probably around 1, which can be a bit unstable if your tank is well stocked.
Daily water changes will help this.

As Gee said, it's finding what works for you, when dealing with your fry.

My daily routine with fry tanks and tanks with adults & fry in it, is;

At tea time, i do a 1/3rd daily water change because of my low kh tap water, in the process hoovering the substrate well, stirring it up to make sure there is nothing trapped in the substrate.
Fill up the tank from a storage tank, doing this daily helps keep low kh water more stable for fry.
And i feed a little freshly hatched baby brine shrimp, but a little micro worms will work just as well, i just happen to be feeding some corys baby brine shrimp at tea time.

Just before lights out for fry tanks, i crumble up a broad bean beside the adults cave, and place some ground up food ontop of the broad beans, and feed a lttle micro worms.
 

Irene0100

UK Support Team
May 14, 2009
4,272
0
36
Norfolk, UK
excellent feeding advice Andrew, I also feed in the morning as well so mine get 3 or 4 feeds a day. interesting you have such different water too.
However these fry from what I am reading are not even getting to the feeding stage.
 

Andrew

Member
May 3, 2009
313
0
16
Renfrewshire, Scotland, UK.
Irene, never read the question properly, just had visions of the hassle i used to have with fry deaths, and after a couple of years of trying something and then going back to square one and trying something else and going back to square one again, i finally seem to be on the right track.
As Gee said, it's a learning curve for the fish and a learning curve for Graham, and he shouldn't get too disheartened, with patience it'll work out.

Graham
You are finding devolping fry outside of the L333 & L26O males caves and they are dying when you put them into a fry trap.
You have also tried putting the devolping fry you find, into an egg tumbler, and they are still dying on you.

Both tanks are 30 gallons, TDS of 67-68ppm, PH of 6.9 & Temp 29-30c
Filtered with an internal filter with venturi.
10% water change daily using HMA water with a TDS of 50ppm.
Tap water is about 147ppm

How many adults are in each tank ?
What is the model of internal filter you are using ?
I use internal filters as back up for my tanks, incase the cannister filter breaks down, you would be better adding a cannister filter to each tank, and also keep the internal filters in the tank.
And you would also be better to invest in an air pump and a couple of airstones for each tank, i don't think a venturi from an internal filter is not enough to oxygenate a hypancistrus tanks.
What is the Nitrate reading in your tanks, even with the 10% daily water changes ?
It is a big difference in T.D.S. from your tap water to your tanks, in my experience, TDS can be lower in a tank from tap water, but not by the amount you are saying.
With T.D.S reading so low in your tanks compared to your tap water, to me it says you need to step up the size of water changes each day.
TDS gets used up in a tanks bio process, and i would say you have a few fish in each tank, low kh water with a high bio process going on it, will lead to swings in the tank.

What was your weekly maintaince before they started breeding, and what is your weekly maintance now that there is fry in the tank ?

Once you have added some equipment, and started doing larger daily water changes to get your tanks T.D.S. up to about your tap waters level, and keep it there.
With low KH water and a high bio load, daily water changes is something you just have to do, or you will get swings in the tank.
Keeping ontop of the substrate, and feeding as been said previously, you will find a big difference.
And also put in three almond leaves in each tank each week, don't leave the leaves until they are breaking up before changing them, they can make a bit of a mess.
 
Last edited:

Duds1000

Member
May 22, 2009
24
0
1
Dundee
thanks Andrew, I have now added Eheim 2215 external filters to both tanks also doing bigger water changes! TDS is 130 (L260 tank) and 132 -133 (L333 tank), there are 7 L260 and 8 L333 both tanks have the large eheim Aquaball internals. My L333 spawned yesterday (20/02) two batches of eggs, I have taken one batch of eggs (12-15 eggs) out the cave and put in an egg tumbler the other i have left in the cave with male. So we will see what happens this time!!!
Thanks everyone for the advice.
 

Andrew

Member
May 3, 2009
313
0
16
Renfrewshire, Scotland, UK.
Graham
Did you add to couple of airstones to each tank, to keep the oxygen levels up in the tanks ?

(My tap water is 147ppm) to HMA (My HMA water is 50ppm out the filter) I will try changing the filter cartridges see if that fixes the problem
My tap water is between 50 to 60 TDS, and is the same TDS after it has been through my HMA filter.
What filters do you have on your HMA unit, if it is not these filters, can you say what ones you are using ; HMA CBR2 REPLACEMENT FILTER SET
I am not sure why there is a change in TDS after water goes through your unit, HMA cleans up the water but shouldn't be taking anything out of it to drop the TDS like that, maybe it will remove a little bit of TDS with some water, but the change in TDS with your tap water is quite a lot.
It's worth figuring out why this is happening, as i think HMA filtered water is ideal for fish.

What are you using for water changes, water straight from the tap, or water from your HMA Unit ?
 

Duds1000

Member
May 22, 2009
24
0
1
Dundee
Sorry Andrew, yes added large airstones to tanks and yes I use the HMA filter with pre-filter,carbon block filter and ChlorPlus 10 filter, pre-filter is a progressive sediment 100-1 micron. Tap water into HMA filter 147ppm - out of HMA filter 50ppm!!!! its got me!!! Water changes are with the HMA filtered water. All the eggs fully developed but as before all gone within a hour this time!!! :wb:
 

Irene0100

UK Support Team
May 14, 2009
4,272
0
36
Norfolk, UK
not good!!! it must be more than just a tds problem! perhaps your temp is a bit high for the young (hotter water holds less oxygen.)
tell us more so we can brainstorm ideas for you.
did they all die at once or gradually over time? were they fertile?
did you take any photos?
 

Irene0100

UK Support Team
May 14, 2009
4,272
0
36
Norfolk, UK
yes, I would try lowering to 27-28, it may help, next time

maybe add a small dose of pimafix to remove any bad bacteria etc
may be worth collecting a bit of rain water if you can, stand in bucket for a few days for high oxygenation and insuforia etc. otherwise I am running out of ideas. there is something we are missing. if next lot fails, send us lots of photos of set up etc and will see if can spot anything.
 

Duds1000

Member
May 22, 2009
24
0
1
Dundee
L333 have spawn again (last night) new pair this time!!! another two females trapped in caves so see what happens. Did have someone coming up to buy them but he has pulled out!!! (lots of time wasters out there) thinking of keeping them now so see it I can sort this problem out :wb: then when I do the price for the group will double :lol: