planted over-tank filtration

[ccole]

hello everyone

I am in the process of building an over tank planted filtration sytem inspired by this link
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=18649&highlight=#p169414
provided to me by a member of this forum.

In this link the person has used a peoduct called earthstone, to hold moisture.

Ever ready and more than willing to save money- has anyone any suggestions of what i could use to fill the plant pots with?

I had an idea to use bio-balls.... but doubt mositure would be retained.....

thanks to anyone with any ideas
cc

 

[bigbird]

maybe check with the hydroponics store in your area. The issue in my view would be that you need adequate flow through the system so it does not cause blockage and thus flood your house. cheers jk :thumbup:

 

[Derek]

Aquasoils can be expensive but there is a cheaper solution. Tesco cat litter, looks just like aquasoil and does the same thing. I have had it in my planted tank for a few months now and have no complaints. Just takes a while to wash to get the smell away. Think its like £2.50 for 50l so its really cheap

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=265235247

Found a link to the stuff,got the price wrong but still cheap.

 

[Lornek8]

Here in Hawaii we use lava cinder for the same purpose as its relatively plentiful and inexpensive. What you're looking for is a media that holds moisture but at the same time oxygen as well. Lightweight is also ideal as you don't want to have to worry about supporting large quantities of heavy dense media above your tank. Essentially what they've done in the link is create an aquaponic setup. Do a search & you should find plentiful links on the subject as well as possible sources for material in your area. Rockwool is another possibility that is widely used in hydroponics, its essentially rock formed into a filter wool type substance.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
You want "hydroleca", (also sold as "hydroton"), cheap as chips from any hydroponic supplier. You can plug plant the plants in rock-wool blocks, it stops them moving until they have developed roots (or you can use "net pots").

Like Lorne says Alfagrog or lava rock (for BBQ's) are also good, but a lot heavier.

It wouldn't be any good for the over tank filter, but I really like Derek's suggestion "Tesco lightweight cat litter" as a substrate for planted tanks. I've got it in a couple of tanks and it is just as good as any of the other high CEC substrates that you would pay x10 as much for. The only downside is that it takes a lot of rinsing to get rid of the perfume.

It is the substrate in the nano tank on the right.

It is "Danish Moler clay" (diatomite), and you can also get it unscented in bulk amounts for mopping up oil spills etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[ccole]

thanks for the replies people-have been reading up on aquaponics and hydroponics and it has really helped plug the gaps in my knowlege. I had done some reading but didnt have the right key words to get the best results.
I have decided to create a drip fed system that will use one pump to push the water up and over thepalnt bed. I will use a inline adjuster to change the drips per-hour (number ph to be explored) . The plant bed will be Expanded Clay Pellets, from my reading i understand these are light weight and retain moisture whilst giving space needed for oxygen.
If a power cut happens then the water will stop dripping and the retaining water will not be over the total amount able to be held by the aquarium
Really crude drawing of what i am talking about....

look like it would work?

 

[bigbird]

thats not a bad idea.
May I ask you, why then not just place the planter box in the aquarium just under the water line ? Would the plants then not just obtain the nitrates etc from the roots ? Similar to a bog ? Would save you pumps and wooden frame ? Just a thought because I was thinking of maybe doing that. Buying hydroponic plants and hanging them in a plastic container with a hook on the back of the tank ? just an idea cheers jk :thumbup:

 

[ccole]

hey there bb
The reason for the frame is because i want to create a loop type system with the 4" pipe, so that there is a larger amount of plants...
the other thing is... i dont want to risk putting weight on my tank as it has a curved front and was warned that the tank is weaker at the front...and the wife is super anxious about hurting the expensive tank!
I thought about just putting the plants ontop of the water, making it more straight forward but we have a majour damp situation in the house and have to keep all lids securly on and shut! lol

Any idea's that dont use extra equiptment is warmly welcomed! lol

 

[Lornek8]

hey there bb
The reason for the frame is because i want to create a loop type system with the 4" pipe, so that there is a larger amount of plants...
the other thing is... i dont want to risk putting weight on my tank as it has a curved front and was warned that the tank is weaker at the front...and the wife is super anxious about hurting the expensive tank!
I thought about just putting the plants ontop of the water, making it more straight forward but we have a majour damp situation in the house and have to keep all lids securly on and shut! lol

Any idea's that dont use extra equiptment is warmly welcomed! lol

Adding all the plants is going to add to the amount of humidity in the air.
Also, remember to work effectively the plants need enough light to grow. Limit the light to the plants and they won't feed as effectively as they could.

 

[jessonthenet]

I have never seen this method of filtration before and I must say that the images of the setup on the loach forum are bizarre. I like the concept but maybe not how that particular way it is set up. It could look prettier.

It would be lovely if it was possible to still have all my plants on my windowsill as that is where I like house plants.

I think for now unless there is a pretty design I will stick to plants in the tank for nitrate removal and pour my old fish tank water into my house plants on a regular basis for them to get the same benefit.

A great idea if you don't want a planted tank but need the same quality water.

I am thinking if it was setup like a turtle tank with amazon swords placed on the raised level, like a water fall effect as they can manage in partial water/out of water whether that would work the same. An external could be used and water would enter the tank and be pumped out the same but water would hit the raised platform first then run through the plants then like a waterfall into the tank, rather than the water pumped above the tank. Would look prettier but would have to be used with aquatics plants that can handle long periods out of water??


OR a better tray for house plants that could possibly sit on a surface like a windowsill but with a pipe running through from one end of the tray to other via some sort of hose which then just looks like an external. I am not sure how it would be but I do understand with the use on the loach forum of the huge sewerage pipe it would allow for a huge root system but really is quite an eyesore as it is in my own opinion but works well.


@ ccole if you have damp issues can you not get a de-humidifier? Also if you are using lots of plants in your house they may appreciate some humidity.

 

[ccole]

I have never seen this method of filtration before and I must say that the images of the setup on the loach forum are bizarre. I like the concept but maybe not how that particular way it is set up. It could look prettier.

pretty wasnt my first concern- live by form follows function


It would be lovely if it was possible to still have all my plants on my windowsill as that is where I like house plants.

Each to there own

I think for now unless there is a pretty design I will stick to plants in the tank for nitrate removal and pour my old fish tank water into my house plants on a regular basis for them to get the same benefit.

Research confirms nitrate removal is far superior when plants have more aceess to oxygen both from water and enviroment

A great idea if you don't want a planted tank but need the same quality water.

My pleco's love the low lighting and dig them up- i think your water quality can never be to perfect.

I am thinking if it was setup like a turtle tank with amazon swords placed on the raised level, like a water fall effect as they can manage in partial water/out of water whether that would work the same.

An interesting idea but the media would not hold the same type of bacteria... this bit gets complicated...

An external could be used and water would enter the tank and be pumped out the same but water would hit the raised platform first then run through the plants then like a waterfall into the tank, rather than the water pumped above the tank.

Today during my research i had actually decided to use an external so that it keeps the bacterial balance by removing the ammonia from the plants...again complicated but the gist is- if i didnt have an external (thus leaving ammonia in the filter media all the time directly from the fish )the plants would be so good at removing the ammonia that the nitrate circle would not complete as it would no longer be present in the tank.

but what you say is a nice idea and would i expect work in theory- but i dont want to lose the water level in my tank .(the oscar wouldnt like it)


OR a better tray for house plants that could possibly sit on a surface like a windowsill but with a pipe running through from one end of the tray to other via some sort of hose which then just looks like an external.

I have seen this done- but i would have to have a very large window edge or very strong walls to take the weight of the amount of plants i want to keep.
I want to grow organic veg...so it has a secondary purpose- 1.water quality= fish health/growth 2. producing organic veg.

I should have added this to the deisgn reasoning


I am not sure how it would be but I do understand with the use on the loach forum of the huge sewerage pipe it would allow for a huge root system but really is quite an eyesore as it is in my own opinion but works well.

you understand correctly- but this is not for display purposes..think of my tank as a tank that lives in a fish room- my living room!:lol:


@ ccole if you have damp issues can you not get a de-humidifier? Also if you are using lots of plants in your house they may appreciate some humidity.

[/I] very sweet of you to suggest this but kind of a given and bless you for thinking of the plants but the house comes first:yes:

again a very interesting post you have written jessonthenet. Always a pleasure- keep posting if you have any other ideas.
:thumbup:

 

[ccole]

Adding all the plants is going to add to the amount of humidity in the air.
Also, remember to work effectively the plants need enough light to grow. Limit the light to the plants and they won't feed as effectively as they could.

totally but half the amount than if i had the lid off-:whistle:
I agree about the light but at first i am going to try with out adding additional light first as i have the tank with two 10ftx4ft windows each end of the living room but will add a light if need be :yes:

cheers lorne:thumbup:

 

[Lornek8]

I'm gonna tell you right now that to grow veggies, even low light ones you're going to need supplemental light. Light falls off quickly indoors an the human eye can resolve light levels deceptively well. There are ways to measure light levels using a camera meter. It involves setting the camera iso to 100 and then metering a white piece of paper. The resulting exposure will give you're light levels but id have to look up the table.

 

[Lornek8]

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tomnz/culture/LIIGHT_MEASUREMENT.htm

Here's a link that talks about it. Just tried it on a south facing window with 50% cloud cover at 10am and got about 500 foot-candles at about a foot from the window. Your results may vary but it gives you an idea.

 

[ccole]

hey there lorne-

I am glad you are so self confident in this area.
Perhaps a more indepth look at the enviromental conditions and my understanding will tell you some things;

I am a photographer and artist by trade and completly understand light and how the eye observes it. My knowledge of this of course directly relates to light and plant growth.

A little run down (of course this is only to my understanding as we all have things to learn...thats why i am here)

1,Sunlight = complete spectrum of light.
2,Plants use the full spectrum for photosynthesis, although red and blue light seem to be most critical.
3,Red = helps growth
4,Blue light= plant growth= perfect for lettice and plants with lots of leaf to it.

5,Tomato plants need at least 12 hours of light as a rule of thumb to better the chance of producing fruit.

6,The room i am going to be growing the veg in is also the room i use for lots of photography. As such i use full spectrum lighting strips at one end.
this means;
"Full-spectrum fluorescent bulbs produce a balance of cool and warm light that replicates the natural solar spectrum."

7, Window direction
The two giant windows that i have made you aware of, are an additional factor. Windows that face south (like one of my 2) give the brightest light for the longest time. In winter, any houseplant benefits from the light of a south window.

8,I intend to see if i need lights because due to my life style i often have the previous stated lights on from 12-18hrs a day.

9,I will see if i need to provide direct light (by providing light that is of a nearer distance) by observing the growth patten of the plant. The lack of growth of course indicating that the lack of light.
Other variations will of course be stunted stem length, elongated stem length. Small leaves, different colour leaves etc.


any thing else you can tell me now, would be great.
thanks ever so

 

[Lornek8]

Light spectrum is important as is intensity. Duration is a bit as well but not necessarily as much a the other aspects as its easily controlled. As a photographer (another hobby of mine as well) you should be able to appreciate the linked page and understand exposure an how light levels relate. Just think how exposure differs from being outdoors and indoors on a given day and you can see how what appears bright indoors pales when compared to outdoor lighting levels. There are many articles about growing indoors and what type of lighting is required. For most you'll see with even multiple fluorescent tubes distances between the lights and plants are typically measures in inches not feet. One must remember that light intensity diminishes exponentially from the source, not linearly.

Now a bit about myself and why i'm pretty confiedent. I'm a mechnical engineer by trade, a one-time semiprofessional landscape and studio photographer, a gardener and used to raise and breed orchids indoors. I studied both hydroponics and aquaponics as research to develop both for home-based food production and have also done a lot of research on aquatic plant growing as well. So I feel pretty good with light and plant growth from past experience.

 

[ccole]

Light spectrum is important as is intensity. Duration is a bit as well but not necessarily as much a the other aspects as its easily controlled. As a photographer (another hobby of mine as well) you should be able to appreciate the linked page and understand exposure an how light levels relate. Just think how exposure differs from being outdoors and indoors on a given day and you can see how what appears bright indoors pales when compared to outdoor lighting levels. There are many articles about growing indoors and what type of lighting is required. For most you'll see with even multiple fluorescent tubes distances between the lights and plants are typically measures in inches not feet. One must remember that light intensity diminishes exponentially from the source, not linearly.

totally agree



Now a bit about myself and why i'm pretty confiedent. I'm a mechnical engineer by trade, a one-time semiprofessional landscape and studio photographer, a gardener and used to raise and breed orchids indoors. I studied both hydroponics and aquaponics as research to develop both for home-based food production and have also done a lot of research on aquatic plant growing as well. So I feel pretty good with light and plant growth from past experience.

It is good to be able to appreciate your experience- my farther in-law breeds ochids and so i understand that you are saying you know your thing and rightly so. You , thankfully pointed me towards aquaponics and i have had my head burried in the books/web since you introduced it.
Have you got any images of your ochid set up's that you could share?
have you got any ideas of how you would set up the perfect set up of what i am trying to do?
1. large volume of plants (veg)
2. aquarium filtration

cheers

 

[Lornek8]

No pics, I broke down the setup awhile ago. Basically it was a wire rack about 3feet wide by 2 feet deep shelves about 5 total. Each shelf had 2x2tube flourescent fixtures above it. There was about 16" between shelves so with with fixtures and plants, there was about 2-6" between the tubes and the leaves.

I'd look at floating raft aquaponics. This might be the best method to maximize the amount of plants and minimize the exposed media to minimize humidity. Probably not going to be above-tank though you could do it with a custom built stand. It typically has some external filtration on it also. A setup with clay media would be doable as well but, in order to make it efficient at housing plants and at the same time not ridiculously time-consuming to setup, would also introduce a lot of humidity due to exposed media. Any way you cut it, plants respirate so adding plants will raise the ambient humidity in room.

 

[jessonthenet]

would it not just be easier to have the veg grow outside and run the water through the soil somehow then pumped into the house or have a separate tank like a sump as a central tank then use this tank/sump with the plants on it to serve the other tank/tanks.

From what you quoted about better oxygen access - I think the better nutrient uptake would be due to better access to CO2 not oxygen as plants won't use up oxygen through the day but give it out and that is all dependent on the elements available such as sunlight etc. Not enough light and plants won't remove anything near what you want anyway. Plants need to photosynthesize and for that they will need enough of everything and too much off one thing will cause the plants to use up other things too quickly.

I find houseplants and tank plants 2 totally different things and tank plants easy compared to the houseplants. If all the houseplants were able to live off were the things in the tank water then I wouldn't just be concerned whether the houseplants were removing enough of what I wanted from the tank but if it was enough to maintain the houseplants.

I obviously like aesthetically pleasing stuff as I like aquascaping but I appreciate good engineering and if you can get a good mix of the 2 then even better. That is what they aim for when putting a product into market. It all has to fit well, work well and look reasonable.

Do you have a high nitrate problem? If it was just that you wanted to grow organic veg and that was your main issue personally I wouldn't bother trying to mix the veg and the tank together.

If I wanted a proper veg project myself I would plant the garden out in a space that had adequate light and good soil and use the old water from my fish tanks as free fertilizer. I have tried other DIY projects for a bit of fun such as have a diy yeast CO2 running for a fortnight but in the long run not practical or useful so I won't go ahead with projects unless there is a real need for it. I don't like wasting money either.

I love houseplants and have plants outside as well as my tank, not as many as I used to not forget the tree , hedges and hanging basket but all of that really does best with adequate conditions and they all benefit from the fish tank water too.

The waterfall idea was an idea I got from an amazonian biotope where a lot of these plants in the wild are partially immersed in water for a lot of the time and was just an idea of saving space but still being able to benefit from plants in the aquarium especially where your main issue is length wise space for plecs only. If the plants were up high in th e tank the bottom would still be bare and the plants couldn't be dug up. Maybe something for me to think about achieving myself using built up rock etc.



In relation to links to the art world I don't do art or serious photography but I do have access to good knowledge as my Aunty knows a lot of artists and had her own art restoration business at her unit in th e centre of Newcastle upon Tyne, she is trained professionally in photography is an excellent pencil artist and still from time to time helps one of her friends go to stately homes to restore expensive artworks. I love that she can get a hold of one off pieces of artwork or limited editions and was wowed by some of the strange artworks drawn by her artist friends she had up on the wall of her property. Prince charles also went to visit her at her unit in the town and the family have a picture of her and him at her business unit. She was also in the local news when she uncovered a very valuable art piece behind another one which she was asked to restore.

Very large baths of chemicals she used to soak her artworks and extremely time consuming but very interesting.

I do love art and photography as well as plants but nothing serious but all these strange ideas are worth looking up and talking about.

 

[Lornek8]

would it not just be easier to have the veg grow outside and run the water through the soil somehow then pumped into the house or have a separate tank like a sump as a central tank then use this tank/sump with the plants on it to serve the other tank/tanks.

From what you quoted about better oxygen access - I think the better nutrient uptake would be due to better access to CO2 not oxygen as plants won't use up oxygen through the day but give it out and that is all dependent on the elements available such as sunlight etc. Not enough light and plants won't remove anything near what you want anyway. Plants need to photosynthesize and for that they will need enough of everything and too much off one thing will cause the plants to use up other things too quickly.

I find houseplants and tank plants 2 totally different things and tank plants easy compared to the houseplants. If all the houseplants were able to live off were the things in the tank water then I wouldn't just be concerned whether the houseplants were removing enough of what I wanted from the tank but if it was enough to maintain the houseplants.

I obviously like aesthetically pleasing stuff as I like aquascaping but I appreciate good engineering and if you can get a good mix of the 2 then even better. That is what they aim for when putting a product into market. It all has to fit well, work well and look reasonable.

Do you have a high nitrate problem? If it was just that you wanted to grow organic veg and that was your main issue personally I wouldn't bother trying to mix the veg and the tank together.

If I wanted a proper veg project myself I would plant the garden out in a space that had adequate light and good soil and use the old water from my fish tanks as free fertilizer. I have tried other DIY projects for a bit of fun such as have a diy yeast CO2 running for a fortnight but in the long run not practical or useful so I won't go ahead with projects unless there is a real need for it. I don't like wasting money either.

I love houseplants and have plants outside as well as my tank, not as many as I used to not forget the tree , hedges and hanging basket but all of that really does best with adequate conditions and they all benefit from the fish tank water too.

The waterfall idea was an idea I got from an amazonian biotope where a lot of these plants in the wild are partially immersed in water for a lot of the time and was just an idea of saving space but still being able to benefit from plants in the aquarium especially where your main issue is length wise space for plecs only. If the plants were up high in th e tank the bottom would still be bare and the plants couldn't be dug up. Maybe something for me to think about achieving myself using built up rock etc.



In relation to links to the art world I don't do art or serious photography but I do have access to good knowledge as my Aunty knows a lot of artists and had her own art restoration business at her unit in th e centre of Newcastle upon Tyne, she is trained professionally in photography is an excellent pencil artist and still from time to time helps one of her friends go to stately homes to restore expensive artworks. I love that she can get a hold of one off pieces of artwork or limited editions and was wowed by some of the strange artworks drawn by her artist friends she had up on the wall of her property. Prince charles also went to visit her at her unit in the town and the family have a picture of her and him at her business unit. She was also in the local news when she uncovered a very valuable art piece behind another one which she was asked to restore.

Very large baths of chemicals she used to soak her artworks and extremely time consuming but very interesting.

I do love art and photography as well as plants but nothing serious but all these strange ideas are worth looking up and talking about.

The concepts being talked about aren't theoretical in the least but are in practical use everyday. See aquaponics as I mentioned previously. Aquaponics is the practice of raising fish and plants together typically for food production. Its not at all a terribly difficult thing to do and the same concepts that we deal with in aquarum keeping apply to aquaponics. If you're used to growing aquarium plants the requirements are similar, just that your plants are grown in a remote grow bed rather than the aquarium and you're dealing with terrestrial plants vice aquatic plants. The biggest difference is that terrrestrial plants require oxygen at the root zone or you could literally drown the plant.

The difficulty that you encounter with growing houseplants, I think, is related to the other posts I made regarding light levels. Indoor light levels are often greatly overestimated due to the human eye's ability to resolve light. With the aquatic plants its probably not as much of an issue simply because you know that you need aquarium lights to grow aquatic plants.