Tapwater, RO, HMA, wet/dry and plants
- Thread starter IanB
- Start date
:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:
Not sure if I really enjoy it all that much can't seem to remember......:lol::lol:
Not sure if I really enjoy it all that much can't seem to remember......:lol::lol:
:lol:
It's total stress until it's over... and I don't drink either so I won't even have a few and forget about it for a few hours..
On the upside.. my water is coming along swimmingly.. KH is down to 9 now..
PH is still at 7.6 though.
And nobody wants an 8.5" Gibbiceps... pfffff...
It's total stress until it's over... and I don't drink either so I won't even have a few and forget about it for a few hours..
On the upside.. my water is coming along swimmingly.. KH is down to 9 now..
PH is still at 7.6 though.
And nobody wants an 8.5" Gibbiceps... pfffff...
Hi,
Your PH won't change if your mixing back in either tap or rejected water until your KH is low enough. The KH will just keep buffering the PH back up as its actually your source water PH that's determining what you have at the moment.
If you want the PH to fall you can use some or all of the following. Peat pellets in your filter, oak extract, blackwater tonic, sphagnum moss peat or plenty of bogwood, alder cones and capata (almond) leaves. These tend to be regarded as the more 'natural' approach and will leave tannins behind. You can 'Chemically' alter the water but this doesn't find favour with most aquarists.
If you change to remineralising with chemicals completely you can alter the PH easier. But I wouldn't advocate using PH down or other such products while you have highish KH values. If you do the PH is likely to bounce up and down while you try to settle it and the actual amount you'll need to use to stabilize things will be very high. The acids used in these products tend to be phosphate based and we all know that to much phosphate can be an issue.
Chris.
Your PH won't change if your mixing back in either tap or rejected water until your KH is low enough. The KH will just keep buffering the PH back up as its actually your source water PH that's determining what you have at the moment.
If you want the PH to fall you can use some or all of the following. Peat pellets in your filter, oak extract, blackwater tonic, sphagnum moss peat or plenty of bogwood, alder cones and capata (almond) leaves. These tend to be regarded as the more 'natural' approach and will leave tannins behind. You can 'Chemically' alter the water but this doesn't find favour with most aquarists.
If you change to remineralising with chemicals completely you can alter the PH easier. But I wouldn't advocate using PH down or other such products while you have highish KH values. If you do the PH is likely to bounce up and down while you try to settle it and the actual amount you'll need to use to stabilize things will be very high. The acids used in these products tend to be phosphate based and we all know that to much phosphate can be an issue.
Chris.
For the moment all I'm doing is doing daily water changes with just ro until the tank water gets to an acceptable level..
KH is down to 9 now and I've added (well, 1 is in, the other needs a scrubbing before it can go in) a couple of monster pieces of bogwood..
I'm quite happy with the way things are going water-wise.. it was just the PH not dropping that was puzzling me because everything else was coming down nicely (until I learned about KH, that is)..
The Gibbi is much more active now too.. I can only put that down to 'better' water for him.. still need him outta there though..
KH is down to 9 now and I've added (well, 1 is in, the other needs a scrubbing before it can go in) a couple of monster pieces of bogwood..
I'm quite happy with the way things are going water-wise.. it was just the PH not dropping that was puzzling me because everything else was coming down nicely (until I learned about KH, that is)..
The Gibbi is much more active now too.. I can only put that down to 'better' water for him.. still need him outta there though..
Hi Ian,
Advertise him everywhere i.e. on this forum, aquarist classified and even Ebay. I'm sure someone will want him somewhere. Large 'gibbies' are very good looking plec's, IMO. If all else fails there's always the LFS which will usually take them in.
Chris.
Advertise him everywhere i.e. on this forum, aquarist classified and even Ebay. I'm sure someone will want him somewhere. Large 'gibbies' are very good looking plec's, IMO. If all else fails there's always the LFS which will usually take them in.
Chris.
Stuck him on aquarist-classifieds this afternoon.. will sort an ad for here and the other forum I'm on tomorrow.. freecycle midweek I reckon.. there's one more lfs I could try but he's lost his way a bit with his fish so I'm not 100% happy about taking him there..
Quick update on water stats (just because I've not posted them for a bit and I'll forget in 2 mins if I don't)..
TDS 193
GH 10
KH 6
PH still 7.6
Shouldn't the ph have dropped a bit by now?
Quick update on water stats (just because I've not posted them for a bit and I'll forget in 2 mins if I don't)..
TDS 193
GH 10
KH 6
PH still 7.6
Shouldn't the ph have dropped a bit by now?
Hi,
No I wouldn't expect the PH to drop at all. It's the KH which keeps it buffered. The carbonates (which KH is usually primarily made up from) are used up gradually and unless this falls very low the PH will remain where it is.
I wouldn't worry about it though its not all that important. There is an excellent article about water quality here
http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12555
that Darrel posted up the other day that's well worth taking the time to read and digest. Towards the end of the article the author discusses PH specifically and explains it and it's relationship to TDS, conductivity and KH very well. Better than I ever could.
How are your plants coming along now? what species have you planted and have you started adding ferts yet?
Chris.
No I wouldn't expect the PH to drop at all. It's the KH which keeps it buffered. The carbonates (which KH is usually primarily made up from) are used up gradually and unless this falls very low the PH will remain where it is.
I wouldn't worry about it though its not all that important. There is an excellent article about water quality here
http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12555
that Darrel posted up the other day that's well worth taking the time to read and digest. Towards the end of the article the author discusses PH specifically and explains it and it's relationship to TDS, conductivity and KH very well. Better than I ever could.
How are your plants coming along now? what species have you planted and have you started adding ferts yet?
Chris.
I have that article bookmarked. Got half way through it last night but realised I needed the cold light of day and a large coffee to appreciate it :yes:
Darrel sent me some lovely plants.. I'm keeping all the substrate dwellers safe from the Gibbi for the moment but the surface plants are going mental.. moreso now that the spray bar is removed and they aren't spinning like they're on a merry-go-round.
I have, waiting to go in, some C. Wendtii, some C. Willisi (I think it's Willisi, kinda hard to tell 100%), 3 Tiger Lotus bulbs and couple of other bits that escape me right now.
On the 'want' list are Giant Vallis (possibly Rubra), perhaps some regular Vallis, Anubias Nana and a nice moss to adorn the bogwood and something that'll carpet the substrate (don't really know what yet, for that).
Easier now all the bogwood is in and looking ok
No ferts yet, should do that this week. And I'm not looking forward to planting in a 30" deep tank..
I guess I should stop adding pure RO and start mixing for water changes soon too?
Darrel sent me some lovely plants.. I'm keeping all the substrate dwellers safe from the Gibbi for the moment but the surface plants are going mental.. moreso now that the spray bar is removed and they aren't spinning like they're on a merry-go-round.
I have, waiting to go in, some C. Wendtii, some C. Willisi (I think it's Willisi, kinda hard to tell 100%), 3 Tiger Lotus bulbs and couple of other bits that escape me right now.
On the 'want' list are Giant Vallis (possibly Rubra), perhaps some regular Vallis, Anubias Nana and a nice moss to adorn the bogwood and something that'll carpet the substrate (don't really know what yet, for that).
Easier now all the bogwood is in and looking ok
No ferts yet, should do that this week. And I'm not looking forward to planting in a 30" deep tank..
I guess I should stop adding pure RO and start mixing for water changes soon too?
Hi Ian,
I've grown all the plants that you mentioned with the exception of Anubias Nana which I believe is a very slow grower which is prone to green spot algae outbreaks.
I know what you mean about the willisi which is a hybrid anyhow between crypt parva and another crypt which escapes my memory for now.
Is the crypt Wendeti the green variety? Do you have anything special in the way of a substrate? using plant tabs? as the crypts and the tiger lotus are normally referred to as root feeders even though they can assimilate there food from the water column at a push its not ideal. The giant vallis is a lovely plant and a terrific grower especially once it reaches the surface and can assimilate its co2 supply from the atmosphere. Have a look at Christmas
lol: pun intended) moss that's one of my favorites. Remember that the crypts are likely to die off initially so are best planted with just a few leafs attached it'll help keep the waste produced by the decaying plant matter down. Don't disturb them and they should come back strongly, but that can take months. Its called crypt melt and is very common, they don't like change, its that simple and can even happen if you move the plant from one place to another in the same tank. Because your getting them from Darrel there probably already the submerged version of the plant but if you got them from a LFS then they would be grown emersed and even more prone to 'melt'.
Have a look at sagataria subulata or dwarf sagataria probably your best bet without injecting co2. The subulata needs good iron levels to do well though but then so will the tiger lotus your already planning to plant.
Sounds like you'll have quite a lot of plants in there and this may cause issues with there not being sufficient co2 to sustain them. I know this isn't what you want to hear but when your asking why you have a tankful of algae and dead plants remember where you heard it first. What filters are you using and whats your tank turnover like?
I wouldn't worry about mixing the RO water until you've reached the parameters that your aiming for there's no point.
Chris.
I've grown all the plants that you mentioned with the exception of Anubias Nana which I believe is a very slow grower which is prone to green spot algae outbreaks.
I know what you mean about the willisi which is a hybrid anyhow between crypt parva and another crypt which escapes my memory for now.
Is the crypt Wendeti the green variety? Do you have anything special in the way of a substrate? using plant tabs? as the crypts and the tiger lotus are normally referred to as root feeders even though they can assimilate there food from the water column at a push its not ideal. The giant vallis is a lovely plant and a terrific grower especially once it reaches the surface and can assimilate its co2 supply from the atmosphere. Have a look at Christmas
lol: pun intended) moss that's one of my favorites. Remember that the crypts are likely to die off initially so are best planted with just a few leafs attached it'll help keep the waste produced by the decaying plant matter down. Don't disturb them and they should come back strongly, but that can take months. Its called crypt melt and is very common, they don't like change, its that simple and can even happen if you move the plant from one place to another in the same tank. Because your getting them from Darrel there probably already the submerged version of the plant but if you got them from a LFS then they would be grown emersed and even more prone to 'melt'. Have a look at sagataria subulata or dwarf sagataria probably your best bet without injecting co2. The subulata needs good iron levels to do well though but then so will the tiger lotus your already planning to plant.
Sounds like you'll have quite a lot of plants in there and this may cause issues with there not being sufficient co2 to sustain them. I know this isn't what you want to hear but when your asking why you have a tankful of algae and dead plants remember where you heard it first. What filters are you using and whats your tank turnover like?
I wouldn't worry about mixing the RO water until you've reached the parameters that your aiming for there's no point.
Chris.
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Wendtii.. brown I think (just been through my plant tub and can't find it.. typical)..
I had the Willisi (if that's what it is) planted - broke it up from 3 massively overgrown pots and it was doing really well prior to uprooting..
So were the Lotus bulbs (until they got buried - they're doing ok in my sump for now - until I can re-plant them)
There's a few species but the outcrops aren't going to be huge.. small patches (obviously I'll be thinning them out if they need it) .. I'm hoping any foreground/carpet and the moss will be the biggest areas of single species..
Substrate is sand..
Filtration.. 700 litre tank, 3000lph pump running a wet/dry trickle filter sump affair.. this is why CO2 is an issue - this type of filter and CO2 are a non-starter iirc??..
I had the Willisi (if that's what it is) planted - broke it up from 3 massively overgrown pots and it was doing really well prior to uprooting..
So were the Lotus bulbs (until they got buried - they're doing ok in my sump for now - until I can re-plant them)
There's a few species but the outcrops aren't going to be huge.. small patches (obviously I'll be thinning them out if they need it) .. I'm hoping any foreground/carpet and the moss will be the biggest areas of single species..
Substrate is sand..
Filtration.. 700 litre tank, 3000lph pump running a wet/dry trickle filter sump affair.. this is why CO2 is an issue - this type of filter and CO2 are a non-starter iirc??..
Hi,
Yeah I forgot about the trickle filter for a bit it is kind of an issue where the plants are concerned, great for your fish though....Plenty of Oxygen.
Sand is completely inert and won't give much purchase to the roots. Have you considered planting in pots with a good quality substrate in? You could bury or simply hide the whole pot but this will give the plants a good quality substrate to grow in and would really help.
The brown Variety of Wendeti (purplish red on the underside of the leaf) isn't as hardy as the standard green variety and IME likes a little flow over it, not a torrent but enough to make it sway gently in the current.
Chris.
Yeah I forgot about the trickle filter for a bit it is kind of an issue where the plants are concerned, great for your fish though....Plenty of Oxygen.
Sand is completely inert and won't give much purchase to the roots. Have you considered planting in pots with a good quality substrate in? You could bury or simply hide the whole pot but this will give the plants a good quality substrate to grow in and would really help.
The brown Variety of Wendeti (purplish red on the underside of the leaf) isn't as hardy as the standard green variety and IME likes a little flow over it, not a torrent but enough to make it sway gently in the current.
Chris.
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I had considered planting in tubs rather than individual pots (and have been collecting fresh veg tubs from ASDA for a while now, to that end) ... they'd just need trimming down in height, punch some holes in, lining with some hessian? and filling with suitable media.. would help to stop the spread too I guess?
That would make everything so much easier. If you filled them with a really good quality substrate like ADA, Tropica, eco complete or Oliver Knott's nature soil which are enriched and designed specifically to grow plants in then some of your fertilizing problems would be eased immediately.
There not cheap by any means but its like everything in life you get what you pay for. There is a known ammonia spike when using the ADA substrate initially but as long as your aware of it then it can be dealt with.
Chris.
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I have some JBL Aquabase plus now.. and some tubs/pots.. start potting after the weekend ready for planting when 'it' (the affectionate term we now use for the Gibbi) has gone (midweek with a little luck).
Quite pleased with the latest water test results (3 days after adding 6 little angels - who appear to be doing very well)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10
PH - 7.6
TDS - 164
GH - 8
KH - 5
Now adding 5L of tapwater to the RO and changing 45-ish litres twice a week (1st change was today, will perhaps go to once a week changes of around 10% when I have more water containers)
See how that goes. :thumbup:
Quite pleased with the latest water test results (3 days after adding 6 little angels - who appear to be doing very well)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10
PH - 7.6
TDS - 164
GH - 8
KH - 5
Now adding 5L of tapwater to the RO and changing 45-ish litres twice a week (1st change was today, will perhaps go to once a week changes of around 10% when I have more water containers)
See how that goes. :thumbup:
Hi,
I'll be brutally honest Ian the JBL aquabasis is crap wouldn't give it tank space personally.
I used it when I first started the planted tank thing after reading all the manufacturers blurb and falling for the sales spiel in the fish store. Never again. It'll supply trace elements to the roots of your plants but that's about all. When talking about fertilizers for plants the macro nutrients are Nitrogen, Pottasium and Phosphate otherwise known as NPK (K being the chemical symbol for Pottasium) and these can be thought of as the meat and veg in their diet. The micro nutrients which are also referred to as 'trace elements' include things like iron, cobalt, molobendium, zinc etc etc and are kind of the equivalent to vitamins and minerals that we require for good health.
All of the substrates that I listed would have also supplied the 'meat and veg' to your plants roots as well as the vitamins and minerals.I know you'll use the aquabasis plus now anyway regardless of what I've said because it ain't all that cheap and you've already bought it so you'll have to ensure that there is plenty of NPK in the water column for your plants to feed on.
I'm glad your tanks water parameters are coming into line with what you want kind of makes all the effort worthwhile.
Chris.
I'll be brutally honest Ian the JBL aquabasis is crap wouldn't give it tank space personally.
I used it when I first started the planted tank thing after reading all the manufacturers blurb and falling for the sales spiel in the fish store. Never again. It'll supply trace elements to the roots of your plants but that's about all. When talking about fertilizers for plants the macro nutrients are Nitrogen, Pottasium and Phosphate otherwise known as NPK (K being the chemical symbol for Pottasium) and these can be thought of as the meat and veg in their diet. The micro nutrients which are also referred to as 'trace elements' include things like iron, cobalt, molobendium, zinc etc etc and are kind of the equivalent to vitamins and minerals that we require for good health.
All of the substrates that I listed would have also supplied the 'meat and veg' to your plants roots as well as the vitamins and minerals.I know you'll use the aquabasis plus now anyway regardless of what I've said because it ain't all that cheap and you've already bought it so you'll have to ensure that there is plenty of NPK in the water column for your plants to feed on.
I'm glad your tanks water parameters are coming into line with what you want kind of makes all the effort worthwhile.
Chris.
Cheap it aint.... Read a few independent good reviews of the jbl and found it on offer, being a born-again sounding, it was impossible not to jump in....
In case it makes a difference, I will be doing with ferts too....
You are spot on about the water, it has made it all worthwhile, and I would still be struggling if not for you lot..
Next up..... HMA filter.... Next year. Maybe.
In case it makes a difference, I will be doing with ferts too....
You are spot on about the water, it has made it all worthwhile, and I would still be struggling if not for you lot..
Next up..... HMA filter.... Next year. Maybe.
Hi Ian,
Yeah we both made the same mistake for the same reasons....:lol::lol:
JBL aquabasis plus doesn't offer anything in the way of CPC exchange which is basically the ability of a substrate to absorb NPK from the water column and make it available to the roots of the plant like the other substrates do. When I used it I actually had roots growing up out of the substrate searching for nutrients and that looks horrible.
Remember some of your plants are considered heavy root feeders so you'll now need to dose NPK at high enough levels for them to be able to assimilate all they require from the water column. One of the problem with that is knowing how much is enough. If I were you I'd go to the UKAPS website and look into the Estimative Index method of dosing fertilizers. Its easy and cheap but a little difficult to get your head around initially but I promise you it does work.
http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm
Chris.
Yeah we both made the same mistake for the same reasons....:lol::lol:
JBL aquabasis plus doesn't offer anything in the way of CPC exchange which is basically the ability of a substrate to absorb NPK from the water column and make it available to the roots of the plant like the other substrates do. When I used it I actually had roots growing up out of the substrate searching for nutrients and that looks horrible.
Remember some of your plants are considered heavy root feeders so you'll now need to dose NPK at high enough levels for them to be able to assimilate all they require from the water column. One of the problem with that is knowing how much is enough. If I were you I'd go to the UKAPS website and look into the Estimative Index method of dosing fertilizers. Its easy and cheap but a little difficult to get your head around initially but I promise you it does work.
http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm
Chris.