Not mine just sharing as found it very poisoning.
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Ok so it was not my last post on this subject
But this is how I see it
A small dit on the subject of cruelty and killing animals.
I am lucky to have a supply of wild caught and killed meat.
On offering an Elk meat sandwich to some old bat and explaining the meat was fresh and killed yesterday she almost chucked up and chose a Bernard Mathews Chicken Ham rolled sandwich.
Well my only consolation was it would giver her cancer as that animal was no were near as free as my Elk.
The Elk was only taken because it was weak and had run its life the chicken was stood in its own filth to provide the fat cow with a cheap tasteless meat.
Oh and naturally Tesco with a nice profit.
I really dont see how anyone of us can judge any other fishkeeper as to how they keep their fish:dk:. I keep a pair of queen arabesque in a 2ft so is that bad??. We have all removed something from its natural habitat. NONE of us know how the hell a fish is feeling.
They look in top condition IMO, Infact they look in better condidtion than alot of fish I see nowdays.
I would be interested to know the filteration set up on that tank though.
Cheers
thegeeman
They look in top condition IMO, Infact they look in better condidtion than alot of fish I see nowdays.
I would be interested to know the filteration set up on that tank though.
Cheers
thegeeman
Derived from Aesop who wrote tales giving airmails human attributes
Like in My cat loves me or That fish winked at me
Does anybody remember this tank from PlecoFanatics? When I first joined PlecoFanatics this was one of the very first tanks that I saw, and quite simply captivated me, and is one of the reasons I am where I am in the hobby.
The original 2006 thread
The only thing this discussion will be able to achieve is to scare off potential new forum members and cause arguments. Just as this older thread did. It just shows different, not right or wrong, husbandry techniques.
The best words I can remember from Justin's old thread, were something along the lines of:
"Would I want that in my living room? hell yes! Would I want to look after it? Hell no!"
The original 2006 thread
The only thing this discussion will be able to achieve is to scare off potential new forum members and cause arguments. Just as this older thread did. It just shows different, not right or wrong, husbandry techniques.
The best words I can remember from Justin's old thread, were something along the lines of:
"Would I want that in my living room? hell yes! Would I want to look after it? Hell no!"
Hi all,
I'll call a halt, and we will have to differ in our opinions. I don't know about any-one else, and I don't claim to be anything like as good a fish keeper as FFMkII or either of the Bristol Pleco Gods, but I certainly couldn't keep the water and inhabitants in that tank in good condition for more than a few days, absolute tops.
Fish are sentient organisms, but 99.9% of their behaviour is driven by their genes, it is not a matter of choice but behaviour "hard wired" into the fish by natural selection during evolution. A large Panaque doesn't think "I'm in a tank I don't need to fight with that competitor for my food, shelter, mate etc." it doesn't think at all, it does what its genes tell it too.
We don't know much about the behaviour of loricariids, but there has been a lot of work with cichlids, and I would recommend George Barlow's book to any fish keeper, it is a good read and allowed me to see a lot of thinks that (even though they were happening every day in the tank) I'd never seen before. [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cichlid-Fishes-Natures-Experiment-Evolution/dp/0738205281"]The Cichlid Fishes: Nature's Grand Experiment in Evolution: Amazon.co.uk: George Barlow: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5176xaCwLDL.@@AMEPARAM@@5176xaCwLDL[/ame]
cheers Darrel
I'll call a halt, and we will have to differ in our opinions. I don't know about any-one else, and I don't claim to be anything like as good a fish keeper as FFMkII or either of the Bristol Pleco Gods, but I certainly couldn't keep the water and inhabitants in that tank in good condition for more than a few days, absolute tops.
Not really in fact it is the opposite of anthropomorphism. It isn't about giving the fish what we think is good for it and calling it "Sucky" (even though I don't necessarily see anything wrong in this approach). It is about giving them conditions where they can display as many of their natural behaviours as possible.
Fish are sentient organisms, but 99.9% of their behaviour is driven by their genes, it is not a matter of choice but behaviour "hard wired" into the fish by natural selection during evolution. A large Panaque doesn't think "I'm in a tank I don't need to fight with that competitor for my food, shelter, mate etc." it doesn't think at all, it does what its genes tell it too.
We don't know much about the behaviour of loricariids, but there has been a lot of work with cichlids, and I would recommend George Barlow's book to any fish keeper, it is a good read and allowed me to see a lot of thinks that (even though they were happening every day in the tank) I'd never seen before. [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cichlid-Fishes-Natures-Experiment-Evolution/dp/0738205281"]The Cichlid Fishes: Nature's Grand Experiment in Evolution: Amazon.co.uk: George Barlow: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5176xaCwLDL.@@AMEPARAM@@5176xaCwLDL[/ame]
cheers Darrel
There is no reason to argue here, we are a happier forum and I'm glad some people don't agree with this sort of tank ( I for one like them but could never keep with the strict water change regime it would need) and I'm glad other admire them.......would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed. Spread the love.
One thing I will say, I wish I saw these high levels of passion when it comes to threads regarding meds, in particular the misuse and overuse of chemicals and antibiotics that are probably messing with the genes and who knows what else. One day we won't have to worry about whose got too many fish or not as parasites, bacteria and whatever else become so resistant, no meds will work plus on top of that the damage that is caused short and even long term. Ahh but then we have UV, but even that raises questions about fish in the long term becoming unable to fight any diseases.
We need to as a forum educate and advise not flame and shame. There's no point attacking people because we don't agree with something, it doesn't work, we drive them away.
We need to as a forum educate and advise not flame and shame. There's no point attacking people because we don't agree with something, it doesn't work, we drive them away.
A very good point on meds
I try to run med free and will only use the fix it twins
One thing I do know the less fish, the more water changes and the less food the less I get problems.
but again A cracking post from Doodles:clap::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
just because one cant do it doesnt mean it cant be done...
giving the fish what we think is good for them in humans terms (less crowded) is anthropomorphism in every sense of the word....
admission that we dont know much about loricariids but persistently refusing to discover more is contradictory...
having a cause and pushing it to the exclusion of furthering the same cause is just oxymoronic...
giving the fish what we think is good for them in humans terms (less crowded) is anthropomorphism in every sense of the word....
admission that we dont know much about loricariids but persistently refusing to discover more is contradictory...
having a cause and pushing it to the exclusion of furthering the same cause is just oxymoronic...
1) It is 'possible' to keep 'some' captive bred cichlids together from different countries.
Our Africans are increasingly able to live quite happily in low pH and even breed in it.
I know of one Frontosa breeder who swears by 7.4 pH as an ideal spawning level and 7.4 is quite tolerable to some plecos and American cichlids as long as they are conditioned to it.
2) In that vid the fish have furnishing and cover in the tank. Fish very much like this.
I have seen wholesalers tanks with no furnishings and although the tank is not overstocked they fish prefer to bunch together when there is no cover. It is a natural schooling thing to do when furnishings are absent.
I have also seen vids of plecos in the wild and yes, in a couple of them, they did all pretty much sit on top of each other and school where there was little cover. They were in that area as although there was little cover, there was an abundance of food in the current and they were waiting for it to drift down to them.
3) What that vid did not show is the filtration system. I know of some fish owners who have a sump underneath for filtration that is every bit as big as the actual fish tank.
That means that in a 4ft tank, the fish actually have 8ft of water in volume.
4) Not condoning having that many fish in one tank as I don't think it is necessary but I can see short to medium term where it is possible with low detriment to the fish.
Good food, great filtration and lots of cover are three of the most important things to fish and that all seems to be covered by that particular fish keeper.
Our Africans are increasingly able to live quite happily in low pH and even breed in it.
I know of one Frontosa breeder who swears by 7.4 pH as an ideal spawning level and 7.4 is quite tolerable to some plecos and American cichlids as long as they are conditioned to it.
2) In that vid the fish have furnishing and cover in the tank. Fish very much like this.
I have seen wholesalers tanks with no furnishings and although the tank is not overstocked they fish prefer to bunch together when there is no cover. It is a natural schooling thing to do when furnishings are absent.
I have also seen vids of plecos in the wild and yes, in a couple of them, they did all pretty much sit on top of each other and school where there was little cover. They were in that area as although there was little cover, there was an abundance of food in the current and they were waiting for it to drift down to them.
3) What that vid did not show is the filtration system. I know of some fish owners who have a sump underneath for filtration that is every bit as big as the actual fish tank.
That means that in a 4ft tank, the fish actually have 8ft of water in volume.
4) Not condoning having that many fish in one tank as I don't think it is necessary but I can see short to medium term where it is possible with low detriment to the fish.
Good food, great filtration and lots of cover are three of the most important things to fish and that all seems to be covered by that particular fish keeper.
I will rest after this. Just sharing this old thread, I thought the discussion was calm and actually drew the Taiwanese hobbyist out to explain a bit more, too bad it did not continue but a few gems were uncovered....
look out for FuglyDragon's post on page 2, he articulated it a lot better than I did..
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16667&hilit=justin
I think Matt posted a pic from this thread earlier.
look out for FuglyDragon's post on page 2, he articulated it a lot better than I did..
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16667&hilit=justin
I think Matt posted a pic from this thread earlier.