the sale of illegally imported plecs

[scatz]

Following on from the recent zebra thread, we have been having a discussion in the admin lounge as to wether we at PP should allow the posting of adverts for illegally exported L numbers, i.e, those L numbers that are specifically from Brazil that are being exported despite being on the banned list.
We have been going around and round in circles with this one so i want to open it up for general debate, please remember that this can be a sensitive issue so keep your posts on topic, argue with someones opinion if you feel you need to, but do not attack them personally for having it, i'll be watching closely and will delete any posts that i think could be considered a ersonal attack.

Now, my views....
1) smuggling these fish out is illegal.
2) Morally its wrong to buy these fish as it keeps a demand for the smugglers to supply
3) These fish were banned from export to protect their numbers in the wild, supporting the ban could be a good conservation tick for PP

But.............
1) these fish are only banned from export, not import, so the only people that have broken the law are those that take them from Brazil to columbia etc.
2) With massive markets in europe and japan paying top dollar for wild caught fish, the smugglers will continue to catch and move the fish on even if we banned the adverts here
3) there are still big protests going on over the proposal of 5 dams to be built in brazil, various groups of environmentalists along with Indians native to the xingu area have been lobbying the world bank to pull out of the project, but so far, the plans are still set to go ahead, now IF these dams get built, there will be a fair few of these "protected" species wiped out in the wild, so which way can PP best help the conservation of these fish?
4) I would always promote the sales of captive bred plecs, but to be able to meet the demand for the whole UK, without inbreeding, there would need to be hundreds of colonies of wild caught adults, so initially we would need to promote the sales of wild caught fish:wb:

now maybe you can see why we are going round in circles.

i'd like to hear your views and ideas, please dont just say "ban them because its wrong" as that doesn't really answer any arguements, i'd like some thought out feedback and suggestions please, i've added a poll to this too to get more views.

 

[Stan]

Quite a dilemma...
Personally I'd say from a humanitarian standpoint that the Local peoples at the collection points must gain somewhat from the trade of these fish. so by not promoting the sale of these fish we could be adding to regional economic downturn...
Secondly, as already stated above, if these proposed dams are built the natural habitat of several species will be wiped out. So I feel we, as hobbyists, have some responsibility to keep these endangered species for posterity. I will use Endler's Livebearer for a similar example. All but completely wiped out in the wild, these vibrant colorful fish would have gone the way of the DoDo if it hadn't been for aquarists keeping and breeding the species.
Finally, If the Product come's from a country where the sale and distribution of that product is legal (even if they are the middleman), and the Import laws of your country have no bans in effect, In my books is legal.
So based on these thoughts Promoting these sales is neither illegal nor immoral. Just my $0.02.

 

[Darkstar]

Is this is anyway related to some guy selling wild caught L46's..as I've just been put on moderation on another forum because some idiot is doing exactly that. Would hate to think he's peddling his crap on here too....expecially because if he is then this is another forum off my list.

As to your points why:

1) these fish are only banned from export, not import, so the only people that have broken the law are those that take them from Brazil to columbia etc.


Not the case, purchasing illegally caught animals is still against the law. If I buy a stolen painting I'm still open to prosecution even if it wasn't me that actually stole it...ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law. There's even a law for it, it's called handling stolen goods...and if the owner of this forum allows adverts for stolen fish to be placed on his/her forum then they're complicit too and could be prosecuted.


2) With massive markets in europe and japan paying top dollar for wild caught fish, the smugglers will continue to catch and move the fish on even if we banned the adverts here.

So, that's hardly an excuse is it?...because he's doing it then i should too....this is an argument i would expect from anyone below the age of 9, not above.


3) there are still big protests going on over the proposal of 5 dams to be built in brazil, various groups of environmentalists along with Indians native to the xingu area have been lobbying the world bank to pull out of the project, but so far, the plans are still set to go ahead, now IF these dams get built, there will be a fair few of these "protected" species wiped out in the wild, so which way can PP best help the conservation of these fish?

So now we're discussing breaking the law for something that may or may not happen. When it is happening then come back and use it as an excuse, until then peoples opinions of future possibilities and what may or may not happen to the fish should have no bearing on the current situation.


4) I would always promote the sales of captive bred plecs, but to be able to meet the demand for the whole UK, without inbreeding, there would need to be hundreds of colonies of wild caught adults, so initially we would need to promote the sales of wild caught fish

Considering we have no idea how many there are of each species in the country this isn't a valid argument, however i would suspect there are plenty of most species in this country to start breeding programmes quite succesfully. If memory serves me correctly you only need a minimum of 25 unrelated humans in order to successfully repopulate the earth....i don't see why humans should differ from from fish in that respect.

I personally think this even being discussed is beyond dumb. These fish are banned for a reason and if I knew where the guy who was selling illegally exported zebs lived (and seems to think what he's doing is ok) I would have no hestiation in going round there and knocking the crap out of him.

However, please let me know what the decision is here...because if you do decide to go ahead with sale ads for illegally exported fish then you can delete my profile.

cheers
Duke

 

[scatz]

the discussion is not a simple question of wether someone can sell wild zebs on here, and tbh i haven't seen a thread by anyone trying to sell them on here yet.
if it were a case of just one species being banned then yes, it would be simple, but the idea of policing every sale ad that gets put up, makes it a matter that we have to consider carefully, it would still be too easy to say "wild caught L260, i've had them since before the ban" and we have to take it for gospel that that was the case, or do we investigate every ad as far as we can, or just say no ads for any L number on the list?
if there is an easy answer then i'd love to hear it.

 

[Darkstar]

Yes there is a simple answer. Your a forum, not the police. You're not expected to verify the claim of every advert put on here so you to take it in good faith that the sale is legit. If however, someone claims they have L260 for sale which are recently imported from Peru and wild caught then you have a duty to tell them to go **** themselves and delete the ad.

It's common sense, if it's obviously illegal don't allow it.

 

[Doodles]

Thats a good point, we were worried that trying to control the sales would prove impossible, that was the reason for the poll, not zebs.

From what ive read the hypan ban was put in place because there were too many getting through that hadn't been described, the ban isn't permanent and could be over in six months or so anyway and many hypans will be allowed to be exported again(not the zebra, different ban), thats what I read on PC

Personally I don't see why people can't be patient.

 

[scatz]

Yes there is a simple answer. Your a forum, not the police. You're not expected to verify the claim of every advert put on here so you to take it in good faith that the sale is legit. If however, someone claims they have L260 for sale which are recently imported from Peru and wild caught then you have a duty to tell them to go **** themselves and delete the ad.

It's common sense, if it's obviously illegal don't allow it.

i agree this would be an easy way, but i'd still be concerned that it was too easy to get around:dk:

will let this run for a while and see where we go from there

 

[Darkstar]

i agree this would be an easy way, but i'd still be concerned that it was too easy to get around

will let this run for a while and see where we go from there

yes it is easy to get around, however I don't think there's a 100% proof solution which would mean you only ever advertise legit fish...All you can do is take the relevant action when it becomes apparent that they illegally shipped.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm strongly against the selling of banned fish or indeed realistically of the vaste majority of wild caught fish.

In my opinion there cannot be a scientific fishery for "L" numbers, as there generation times, population number etc would be almost impossible to measure or even estimate with any degree of accuracy.

Everything would suggest that the L numbers are very much the freshwater fish equivalent of Amazon parrots or Brazilian mahogany, and the commercial exploitation of them is realistically strip mining a resource rather than sustainably harvesting it.

cheers Darrel

 

[FF MkII]

Like i said to Brian as long as the site does not condone the selling of illegally exported fish (whatever they may be) and takes action where there is an obvious ad selling wild caught banned fish there is not much that can be done by PP. I have also mentioned that it would be pretty easy to spot anyone selling wild caught as tank bred.....I think the price would be a big give away.

 

[Irene0100]

do hypans only come from Brazil or are some w/c plecs from countries which dont ban them?

 

[FF MkII]

Thats another problem, some are found in countries that dont have an export ban.

 

[Doodles]

AFAIK

Most hypans are from Brazil with exception of a handful. The ban is only on exportation from Brazil and not other countries.

It wouldn't be too difficult to check the location of any hypan.

Just to add all pseudas are also on the list with the exception of one.

 

[Amber]

For what it's worth, I agree with Darkstar 100%. I find the reasoning both realistic and sensible.

 

[Jo Crane]

Does anyone have a definitive confirmed list of all the banned L numbers as that alone seems to cause a lot of confusion on quite a few forums.

 

[Andrew]

Jo
From Ingo Seidel's podcast, 80% of plecs are banned from export from Brazil, and the inspectors are getting more educated for checking, to stop suppliers moving a banned L number under another L number, that is not banned.

 

[Doodles]

This is the list that is circulating

L-2, L-74 (Tiger ''Peckoltia'')
L-4, L-5, L-28, L-73 (Angelicus Pleco)
L-10 (no common name)
L-11, L-35, L-108, L-16 (Red Fin Thresher Pleco, Thresher Pleco)
L-17 (no common name)
L-21 , L-23 (Albino Pleco, Common Pleco)
L-20 (no common name)
L-24 (Flame Pleco, Red Fin Cactus Pleco
L-25 (Scarlet Pleco)
L-27 (L027a, L330, Watermelon Pleco)
L027b (Olive Royal Pleco, Teles Pires Royal Pleco)
L027c (Platinum Royal Pleco, Tocantins Royal Pleco, Longnosed Royal Pleco, Red Fin Royal Pleco, Xingu Royal Pleco)
L-30 (no common name)
L-31, L176, L300, LDA04 (Peppermint Pleco)
L-33 (no common name)
L-36 (no common name)
L-46, L098 (Imperial Pleco, Zebra Pleco)
L-50 (Spotted Cochliodon, Spotted Humpbacked Pleco)
L-53 (no common name) Really cool blue color!
L-56 (no common name)
L-58 (no common name)
L-63 (no common name)
L-64 (no common name)
L-65 (Blizzard Cactus Pleco,Mustang Cactus Pleco)
L-66 (King Tiger Pleco)
L-67 (no common name)
L-68 (no common name)
L-69 (no common name)
L-70 (Zombie Pleco)
L-77 (Bruno Pleco,Rusty Pleco, Violet Pleco)
L-79 (no common name)
L-82 (Opal spot Pleco, Polka-dot cigar pleco)
L-83, L-165 (Gibby,Sail fin Pleco)
L-86 (LDA-14) (no common name)
L-95 (Orange Cheek Pleco)
L-96, L160 (Coffee & Cream Pleco, Spiny Monster Pleco)
L-97 (Polka Dot Cactus Pleco)
L-102 (Snowball Pleco)
L-113 L-234,(no common name)
L-136 L136a, L136b, LDA05, LDA06 (no common name)
L-137 (Blue eyed Red Fin Pleco)
L-138 (no common name)
L-139 (no common name)
L-143 (no common name)
L-155 (Lyre Tail Pleco)
L-168 (Butterfly)
L-171(no common name)
L-174(no common name)
L-172 (no common name)
L-175 (no common name)
L-178 (Red Fin Lasiancistrus)
L-179 (no common name)
L-186 (no common name)
L-185 (no common name)
L-197 (no common name)
L-196 (no common name)
L-198 (no common name)
L-208 (no common name)
L-210 (no common name)
L-217 (no common name)
L-216, L151 (Flat Head Pleco)
L-221, L223 (no common name)
L-250 (no common name)
L-251 (no common name)
L-254 (no common name)
L-256 (no common name)
L-258 (no common name)
L-259 LDA32 (no common name)
L-260 (Queen Arabesque Pleco)
L-262 (no common name)
L-263 (no common name)
L-270, L-307, LDA76 (Chocolate Zebra Pleco, Tapajos Zebra Pleco)
L-271 (no common name)
L-272 (no common name)
L-273 (Titanicus Pleco)
L-275 (no common name)
L-283 (no common name)
L-290, L291 (no common name)
L-294 (no common name)
L-296 (no common name)
L-297 (no common name)
L-299 (no common name)
L-310, LDA51 (no common name)
L-315 (no common name)
L-318 (Lyre Tail Pleco)
L-320 (no common name)
L-321 (no common name)
L-328 (no common name)
L-332 (no common name)
L-337 (no common name)
L-238, LDA40 (Brook Pleco)
L-343 (no common name)
L-333 (Yellow King Tiger)
L-345 (no common name)
L-347 (no common name)
L-353 (no common name)
L-354 (no common name)
L-360 (no common name)
L-361 (no common name)
L-363 (no common name)
L-365 (no common name)
L-366 (no common name)
L-367 (no common name)
L-373 (no common name)
L-374 (no common name)
L-375 (no common name)
L-380 (no common name)
L-381. L051 (no common name)
L-383 (no common name)
L-385 (no common name)
L-391 (no common name)
L-397 (no common name)
L-398 (no common name)
L-399 (no common name)
L-400 (no common name)

This is the IBAMA pdf but its Spanish i think

http://ibama2.ibama.gov.br/cnia2/renima/cnia/lema/lema_texto/IBAMA/IN0203-221008.PDF

 

[macvsog23]

Question
Why are the Dams being built
Answer
To provide power to grow soya to feed live stock to provide meat for the developed world.

more fat people to eat more food

good ain't it?

They will build the dams come what may.

The fish in the area are very small groups of very individual species
They will never be replaced

Question

Why have the government of Brazil banned various species?

Answer

To protect them (Like hell)

So we have fish that are being destroyed but before they are destroyed they are protected from being moved?

What a situation we find ourself s in?

I am sure the best intentions were behind this action by the government of Brazil.

But the short of it is total corruption and total destruction.

My question to the government of Brazil would be are you planing to breed these fish and save the fish?

 

[Mark]

wow

I'm pleasantly surprised by the responses supporting a position to not support the trade of illegally smuggled wild caught fish on the classifieds. I must admit, I thought I was in a minority considering the responses to the original thread. It will be interesting to see the way the poll swings as members from other countries come online!

It would be a good message from PP to not support the sale of fish which have been obviously smuggled and will hopefully keep more people online than detract them.

The question of inbreeding of zebs, for example, is interesting. I'm not aware of too many examples of F2 or F3 generations or their offspring being affected genetically. Hopefully, the sensible mixing of broodstock should alleviate inbreeding - there's enough breeders using unrelated stock out there for it not to be a problem in the next 20 or 30 years at least! I heard somewhere that a German website is attempting to hold some kind of stud book for hypans, but this could be difficult to manage.

I think we are clear that no U.K. or U.S. laws are being broken, but there is a deeper issue of illegal activities breaking well-intentioned Brazillian environmental protection agency (IBAMA) legislation which IMO we should respect.

A big pat on the back for the PP guys in raising this issue, whatever the outcome! One final question though, will a decision to either allow or disallow classifieds for obvious wild caught fish be based solely on the poll or a judgement based on the comments received?

I look forward to more lively debate!

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[scatz]

One final question though, will a decision to either allow or disallow classifieds for obvious wild caught fish be based solely on the poll or a judgement based on the comments received?

not solely no, the poll and thread was created to help us with our discussions, we will take all views and the poll into account when making a decision